Comments on: I never, ever want to hear that teachers are underpaid again.

By: Fixing Milwaukee Notes: Milwaukee School District Governance « PurpleSlog

Fixing Milwaukee Notes: Milwaukee School District Governance « PurpleSlog — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 21:49:44 +0000

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By: Tracy Coenen

Tracy Coenen — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:18:55 +0000

Caren – That game of “gotcha” you’re trying to play isn’t going too well. I didn’t mention the breaks and lunches because I excluded them from my calculation of work hours for both teachers and professionals.

As for a client asking me what I make – I may or may not tell them, but then they’re free to use my answer in their decision about whether or not to use me for their project. See, it’s all about choices. I have no choice when it comes to MPS. My clients have all the choices in the world and can make them accordingly.

But here’s the biggest difference between me and MPS teachers: Value. My clients would all say that they got more than their money’s worth from me, and that’s what matters when they’re spending their money. I don’t know of any many non-MPS people who would say that $100k for MPS teachers is a good value when the students are failing on such a wide scale.

By: Caren Kratochvil

Caren Kratochvil — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:08:53 +0000

You picked apart every little nose wipe in a teacher’s day but didn’t mention a word about lunches and breaks of professionals until now. Then , of course, you cover it with an insult.
Again, Tracy, get informed. You certainly have a right to form an opinion, but if you’re going to act above us in the intelligence department you should make it an informed one. Go out and actually see how many hours a teacher works. You’ll see you’re wrong. I wish I was still working. I’d invite you to shadow me for a few days to see if you could keep up. Besides the long hours, there was the physical and emotional strain of working in an elementary classroom in this day and age. It’s actually a JOB AND A HALF since many of us need and are expected to be social workers as well as teachers. I think I’ll write to the MPS and suggest they give their time-and-a-half teachers a raise!
By the way….if your client asked you how much you make in a year you would tell them? Doubt it.

By: Tracy Coenen

Tracy Coenen — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:23:25 +0000

Wrong again, Caren. I did factor in lunches and breaks and such, from the work hours of other professionals. If you don’t know professionals who work 40 to 60 hours a week, exclusive of breaks and lunches, then you’re even more out of touch with reality than I thought.

I absolutely am allowed to form an opinion about a teacher’s pay, and it is absolutely appropriate that I know how much they are paid. My taxes are not optional. I am forced to pay them whether I want to or not. On the other hand, those who use my services can choose to or not choose to. They have choice in the matter, and they can ask me any questions they want. (They could easily ask me how much I’m paid and factor my answer into whether or not they want to use my services.)

I’m not opposed to teachers getting paid, as you’re trying to portray things. I’m opposed to excessive salaries and benefits paid by MPS.

I don’t know if teachers live extravagant lives or not. I don’t care if they do or not.

What I care about is that $100k in salary and benefits for a less-than-full-time (that would be part-time) job is ridiculous for most of the teachers.

And thanks for your concern about my career. I am, in fact, quite happy with the career that I’ve chosen. And my job allows me to write about things that interest me… in this case, waste and misuse of my tax dollars. (And yes, writing here is unpaid and therefore “off the clock”.)

By: Caren Kratochvil

Caren Kratochvil — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:46:44 +0000

What job is worth $100K to you? Is yours?
You still haven’t explained why you remove time in your calculations from a teacher’s work day for lunch, prep and gossip, but not from the other professionals. The truth is you can’t explain it b/c you’ve done it to make your point fit. You have exagerated and generalized about people and a job you don’t know anything about. The truth is that even though your time estimates are fabricated, it’s not about time but the value of the job done.
You are self employed which is your choice. You have to pay out of pocket for your benefits, but that’s a price you pay for the benefits that go along with being self employed.
The bottom line is that you are insulting and uninformed. You have no real knowledge of what a teacher’s job requires, which you’ve proven from your very first entry.
I didn’t say decide WHAT to pay teachers, but that you don’t decide to pay them at all. You don’t have a choice. Somebody decided that you are able to view a teacher’s salary, but that does not mean it’s appropriate and it does not mean that you can sit in judgment over who deserves what. Same thing with your salary.,,,it’s not appropriate for you to tell us what you make or for us to decide, having never done that job, how hard you work and/or whether or not you earn your current salary. I wouldn’t pretend to know how difficult or time consuming your job is. As someone who has been a teacher for 12 years I find your statements about what my colleagues and I did on a daily basis to be presumptuous,
You have a right to your opinions, but again, you are trying to disguise your opinions as facts. You are very quick to impugn the intelligence of others. Go get informed, Tracy, your insecurities are showing.
I know a lot of teachers, but no rich ones. Teachers aren’t getting away with anything. They are not laughing all the way to the bank with your money. Your bitterness and jealousy has blinded you. I hope that one day you find a carreer that makes you happy enough to be concerned with you and yours, rather than spending your time (off the clock, of course) filled with discernment and misconceptions of others.

By: Tracy Coenen

Tracy Coenen — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:50:11 +0000

Caren – “Not worth that much” = “not worth $100k”. Don’t try to mischaracterize what I’ve said.

By: Tracy Coenen

Tracy Coenen — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:46:56 +0000

Caren – Again you’re showing a lack of understanding and skill. Yes, it is possible to calculate with days and weeks and have the numbers be comparable, which is exactly what I’ve done. You weren’t a math teacher, I hope?

I’m not picking the pay apart at all. The teachers in MPS make an unusually high amount via their benefits. It is part of their pay package and that’s what I’m looking at. When I analyze my own pay, I look at the total package, so that’s what I’m doing here.

No, I don’t count lunch time or gossip time as work. I only count prep time as work if the teacher is actually working during that time. I don’t count lunch time or gossip time as work time for ANYONE in any profession.

And you’re right. I don’t get to decide the pay of teachers. If I did, the teachers at MPS would get a BIG FAT PAY CUT unless they could prove they earned their salary and benefits.

By: Caren Kratochvil

Caren Kratochvil — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:54:45 +0000

Again, it’s not that I don’t understand your math, it’s that you don’t understand how it should be done. The two formulas must be the same in order for the comparison to be accurate. You must either calculate the weeks (not days) worked by teachers to compare weeks worked by other professionals, or calculate BOTH by days worked. The comparison is not accurate if you calculate teachers days and others by weeks.

Professional personally assess their own benefits when choosing a job/career, but if a professional person lists or makes known his/her salary, they don’t say “I make $120,000″ if they make 100K and have benefits equal to $20. What you’re doing is picking it apart to suit your argument. Claiming that teachers are making 100K is laughable. Most districts have a cap well below that.
If a professional works an 8 hr day but takes time to eat lunch at some point of the day, or stops to take a call or two from friends or family (something teachers are unable to do by the way) would you say they only work 6 1/2 hrs a day? Probably not because then you would have to adjust your orignal 40-50 hr per week estimate which assumes all professionals, except teachers, have their heads down working with no time for lunch or socializing all day. But you are so quick to point out any and all time in the day that a teacher is not standing in front of a classroom of students.
Ok, so now you don’t count prep time as work? If a business woman spends a few hours in the afternoon preparing for a presentation, is that not work?
So you tell your clients how much you make annually? I doubt it.
No, they know how much THEY are paying you (just like you know how much of your taxes go to education). And by the way, you don’t DECIDE to pay a teacher’s salary. Is that why you’re so angry?
I entrust my children to the public school system. I’m not always thrilled with every teacher, but there is nowhere I would rather spend my money than on my kids and their education. I wouldn’t want my kids attending a bargain basement school where the teachers are making what you’d have them make.

By: Caren Kratochvil

Caren Kratochvil — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:45:19 +0000

“In your world, it is apparently not okay to have a differing opinion. I live in a different world – one in which people can disagree. An MPS teacher’s compensation of $100k+ has nothing to do with anyone being lowly. It’s just a matter of my opinion, which is that most of them are not worth that much. ”

In my world lowly=not worth that much

I don’t know if you have children, but if you do/did what would the teacher you entrusted them to be worth? You say you know a few teachers so you must be speaking of them b/c they are the only ones you could be basing your opinions on. Do they know you think that little of them?
The thing is Tracy, you speak as though everything you type is factual. All of your calculations, etc don’t prove anything but you act as though they do. What you are expressing is much more than an opinion, it’s a streamful of misconceptions and we (of course, as teachers) are just trying to educate you!

By: Tracy Coenen

Tracy Coenen — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:30:45 +0000

Jeanne – The salary and benefits are obviously not related to the types of teachers attracted. MPS overpays and the teachers under-deliver.

I pay for my own salary and benefits, as I am self-employed. So no, there is no begging for higher pay or benefits. I have no contract. If I work, I make money. If I don’t work, I don’t. I earn the money that goes into my retirement account. I don’t have the taxpayers putting money in it for me. I am completely self-sufficient.

The whole issue with contracts and unions doesn’t bother me at all. Teachers want their unions, so they have to deal with the consequences. You may not have had a contract, but you got paid.