A new pyramid scheme: United First Financial
Recently, someone on my consumer awareness site Pink Truth asked about United First Financial. I did some quick research and came to the conclusion that it was a typical multi-level marketing scheme… basically a pyramid scheme that relies on the continuous recruitment of new members. I didn’t think another thing about the company.
But a fellow blogger on the personal finance site WalletPop recommended the company today and I couldn’t believe it, so I had to do some research again. She promoted United First Financial as a program that is “the debt snowball on steroids.” She spent $3,500 to sign up for their “program” to help her reduce her debt.
So what did I find today? United First Financial is a multi-level marketing company which depends upon the endless recruitment of new members. They sell their $3,500 program to people who can least afford it, and it’s not worth the money. The name sounds vaguely familiar and legitimate, doesn’t it? I’m quite sure that’s part of the scheme.
I began my research with the company’s website. They’re a little different from other MLM schemes in that they don’t mention the “business opportunity” on the main site. I think they’re trying to keep that part a little hush-hush. In searching other sites, I found many people who were questioning whether or not it was an MLM. It is, but it seems that fact is supposed to not be widely quoted.
The company seems to get credibility from articles in industry publications. In reality, those articles are nothing more than fluff pieces meant to market the company. None of the articles offered a critical look at what they’re selling or who they’re recruiting.
UFF has a sales force with no expertise in anything. You can be a representative for the company and not be trained or educated about it. Their disclaimer says: “United First Financial, its agents and subsidiaries provide Internet web based software and support services. United First Financial does not provide accounting, tax, legal, real-estate, mortgage, or investment advice.” So the representatives know nothing about anything, but they’re going to help you reduce your debt? (Update: There are apparently some licensed individuals who are representatives for the company, but there are no qualifications required.)
So what is this $3,500 system you’re supposed to buy? It’s called the Money Merge Account System (MMA). You get access to a software package that tells you what bills to pay when. The key? Finding excess cash to put toward debt to get your debts paid off faster. But I just told you that for free! You don’t need a computer to tell you that if you make a consistent effort to pay more toward your debts, they’ll be paid off faster than if you don’t make that consistent effort.
As part of the program, you use an equity line of credit instead of your regular checking account. This way, when you have extra money, say $1,000, that would have been sitting in your checking account doing nothing…. It is instead applied to reduce your mortgage balance which saves you interest. When you need that $1,000 again, you can get the money back off the equity line of credit. Your debt balance goes back up to where it was before you had that extra $1,000, but you benefit because you saved a little interest while you didn’t need to actively use that $1,000.
That sounds like a good idea, doesn’t it? Yes, in theory. In reality, how many of the consumers signing up for it really understand the process? Do they really understand the risks of this program? Do they understand the drawbacks? It’s more complicated than it needs to be, but mathematically the process can help you pay off your mortgage sooner.
But there are just too many drawbacks to United First Financial.
Here’s a comment I found from a consumer on another site who sat through a UFF presentation:
First, the printed promotional materials stated “Pay off your 30 year mortgage in as little as 6 to 12 years”, “No alteration to your current standard of living”, and “Your 30-year mortgage can now be paid off in approximately 6 to 12 years, with no change to your lifestyle, without increasing your income or monthly mortgage payment or refinancing of your existing mortgage.” Hmm… Sounded too good to be true.
And I was right. THE MATH DOESN’T WORK! I’ll explain.
I just refinanced my house on a 30 year mortgage at 6% interest. How exactly could I pay off my house in 6-12 years without increasing my monthly mortgage payment? Even if my mortgage was at 0% interest and 100% of my payment went to principal, it would still take nearly 14 years to pay it off without increasing my mortgage payment. (Go ahead, do the calculation yourself. Multiply your monthly 30-year amortized mortgage payment not including tax and insurance impounds by 168 months. The answer should be a number slightly higher than your original loan balance. If not, than you may be calculating an interest-only payment or discounted flex payment from and ARM.)
My point is… Interest is interest, whether it’s in a first mortgage or a HELOC. If I have a $100,000 mortgage at 6% and I pull $20,000 off a 6% HELOC to pay down my first mortgage, I still have $100,000 in debt at 6%. It’s now just split between two loans. The idea they promote is that you put your whole paycheck (let’s use $5000 per month as an example) into the HELOC to reduce the balance, then pay for your living expenses out of the HELOC. The HELOC is also used at certain “strategic” times to pay down the first mortgage.
So let’s separate fact from hype. FACT: You might save some interest if your HELOC interest rate is very close to your first mortage interest rate. However, the interest savings only amounts to an average of $10-15 per month using the above example of $5000 per month income. What does that translate to? About 1.5 to 2 years off your mortgage term (paying off your 30 year mortgage in 28 years). That’s a bit different than what they’re promoting.
In the presentation, they passed out a sample report from the software. I filtered through the numbers that they gave (paying off a 30-year $150,000 mortgage at 6.5% interest in 8.4 years). The mortgage payment was listed at $850 per month (which should have actually been closer to $950). They even make the reports difficult to read, but here’s how they arranged to pay off that mortage in 8.4 years: They took $5000 in monthly income and applied $2845 per month toward the “system” (note that the amount is three times the original 30-year amortized payment). My first question is, how exactly do you triple your mortgage payment “without altering your current standard of living” and “without increasing your monthly mortgage payment”?
Now here’s the good part: Let’s take that original loan amount of $150,000 at 6.5% interest. The MMA program was going to pay it off in 8.4 years by applying $2845 per month toward the first mortgage and/or HELOC. Now what would happen if we didn’t use the MMA program and just paid $2845 per month toward the first mortgage of $150,000 at 6.5%? Ready for this?… 5.2 years! That’s 3 years faster than using the MMA program, just by simply paying the same amount directly to your first mortgage. But how many people can afford to triple their mortgage payment anyway?
The bottom line is that UFF is in the software business. This system was created from a simple concept (accelerated mortgage reduction) and made extremely complex so the average person couldn’t understand how the numbers really work. Then they make it look like they’re going to save you $100K or more in interest without affecting your lifestyle, so $3500 for a piece of software that’s really worth a small fraction of that seems like a bargain. DO THE MATH! They’re complicating a simple concept to make you think you need to give them $3500 for a piece of software.
And another commenter who actually paid for the system:
I have been going back and forth with this MMA. I have the MMA program for about 5 months. I spent the 3500 to try it for myself because as a Mortgage Professional I wanted to see what it does and can it really help people. I have debate back and forth with Calvin and others on this thread but I also paid attention to what they were saying and I have come to the conclusion that the MMA product as of now is no more than a glorified spreadsheet. I have to see something more than what I am seeing now with this MMA program. So for now I’m on hold with this until further notice. The more I look at MMA the more I say this can be done with a simple spreadsheet. Maybe I’m missing something here but I don’t think so.
The biggest drawback to United First Financial is the $3,500 fee. It is not worth it, and you could accomplish the same thing this program claims to help you accomplish without paying the fee. There are legitimate banking and mortgage products available to consumers that could accomplishe the exact same thing without the fee. Check out this article about “mortgage accelerator loans” from Bankrate.com. This is the concept that UFF is selling, and you can get it for a very small annual fee.
Quite simply… you don’t need fancy software to be able to pay more on your debt. In fact, you should keep your $3,500 and use that toward your debts!
United First Financial wants you to think they’re just like any insurance agency or mortgage broker… just offering a product that’s supposed to help consumers. Like the more successful MLMs out there, they have a “revolutionary” product like nothing you’ve ever seen before.
Other companies sell magic berry juice. UFF sells magic debt reducer juice. But there’s nothing magic about it and you don’t need to spend $3,500 to get it. Stay far, far away from this plan.
Related Posts
- United First Financial: Don’t believe the hype
- United First Financial scam: You’re using the bank’s money to pay down your mortgage
- What does another expert say about mortgage acceleration programs like United First Financial?
- Fun with numbers: I can save you $19,714 (without United First Financial)
- United First Financial made simple
Yet another case where a little cynicism and financial sophistication would go a long way.
Yet I’m being called uneducated and being told to research the product before I form an opinion. A quick bit of the right research shows this use of a HELOC is legitimate but can be done without a $3500 fee to a MLM. How much more research could I possibly need to do? LOL
At least you aren’t being called ugly:
http://tinyurl.com/6635b9
That’s a link to a Yahoo! stock messageboard regarding a company I disparaged. Gotta love those ad hominem attacks.
“magic debt reducer juice” … ROFL
If it makes you feel any better, I am regularly called ugly AND fat by MLM lovers. What a world!
Well, Tracy, that just goes to show how dumb and unobservant the supporters of MLM are.
Michael … maybe if you shaved the beard and got contact lenses?
*blush*
AC – I think taking beauty advice from random strangers on the interweb is about as foolish as taking investment advice from them. That being said, I don’t currently have the beard (although I’ll probably grow it back because my wife likes it).
I was hoping you’d say that Michael, cuz I was thinking “Maybe he likes a beard…. Heck, maybe his wife likes the beard.”
Along the same lines I am starting an MLM company to hep alcoholics quit drinking. I charge them $3500 and anytime they need a beer they don’t go to the store, they buy it from me. Then I’ll start one for crack addicts. This biz model has legs.
I’d rather get the opinion of the Mortgage Professionals that are putting this program on the market. So, I’ve talked to several of them and they’ve had some interesting things to say about the program.
First of all it’s not an MLM pyramid scheme. Some of the younger agents aren’t homeowners yet although they are selling the program. So you don’t have to buy it to sell it. You can be an agent and never recruit a single person into the business if that’s what you choose. You can also buy the program without ever joining the company. Therefore I wouldn’t consider this to be MLM. As far as the pyramid is concerned, it’s not structured that way at all. You don’t place people beneath you, then below them, and on the right side then the left etc. etc. If you choose to recruit someone it’s because you are building a company branch office for yourself. Then, any new business that branch creates, you can earn an override from. You get paid from your efforts. Also, if you aren’t making personal sales, you don’t get paid anything. So, if you thing you can just get in on some level and make money for doing nothing, think again… not possible with United First Financial.
As far as doing it yourself without the software… if you can do it show me that you have done it. Show me your personal results. Show me that you’ve paid off your 30 yr mortgage in less than 15 years without changing your cash-flow.
The software figures out to the day, as to when to send the extra money from the line of credit. It also figures out to the penny how much to send, so that you don’t pay too much interest on the line of credit. If you have another proven way, just show me your publications that give you praise for your program. I did the research. This company is published in Broker Banker Magazine, Mortgage Planner Magazine, Personal Real Estate Investor Magazine, and True Wealth Magazine. Not only published, but they are the cover and feature story in all of them. They are also sponsoring the National Mortgage Broker’s Convention. If they were not held in such high regard, they would not have such good credentials, nor would they be able to be a sponsor at this event.
Oh yeah… if you are a customer and do not like the results you are getting at anytime, you get a 100% refund of your money and they let you keep the program for life.
So, for anyone who hasn’t educated them self about the company, please do so before you write your terrible blogs about a great company that you know nothing about.
Please research what the Federal Trade Commission, the Better Business Bureau, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce have to say about them. If it’s a scam I’m sure you will find hundreds of complaints and lawsuits sense they have well over 50,000 customers.
Brian – You’re free to listen to anyone’s opinion. That’s what’s fantastic about this country. You’re also free to waste $3,500 if you like. But I’m giving you an opportunity to save almost $20k on your mortgage FOR FREE. I’m not charging you a cent for this advice: Place that $3,500 on your mortgage. That will save you $20k in interest.
Now, you may not understand what an MLM is. MLMs don’t “require” anyone to recruit anyone else. But you’ll do it if you want to make the “real” money. (Whatever of it there is to be made). You can call it a “branch” if you like, but it’s still part of an MLM. Changing the names/words doesn’t change what it is.
Doing this (paying off your mortgage early) without the software only requires simple math. PAY EXTRA EACH MONTH. You tell me how fast you want to pay it off, I tell you how much extra to pay each month. No need to change your cash flow either. Just take money that you would spend on other things and apply it to your mortgage. Same cash going out, just as UFF has you do.
The magazines you cite, unfortunately, produce marketing pieces. These are not dedicated to any critical thinking or investigative report. Just marketing.
And have you read the guarantee with this product? The only way you will qualify for the refund is if you have followed the recommendations of the program exactly. Deviate from the path in the least (even for the good) and you’re not going to get your money back. Surely you’re intelligent enough to recognize a worthless guarantee?
I appreciate your enthusiasm for the product. Unfortunately, the FTC and other government bodies are overloaded with work and can’t (or choose not to) go after each and every scam or deception that is out there. There are thousands of companies in the U.S. making false claims, but there simply isn’t enough time or power to go after all of them. Plenty of bad and fraudulent companies operate without any government intervention.
Thanks for your participation!
Remember too… you say you want the opinion of people who are “putting this product on the market.” Do you think they’ve got an independent opinion of the product when they stand to profit from the purchase of it? Because I’ve got nothing to gain (monetarily or otherwise) from investigating and reporting on this product. Nothing at all… other than some interesting discussions on my website.
This is interesting.
…..I am sitting here tonight doing searches on google to find blogs and articles such as this to help me make my decision before I sign. I think the decision is made…I am finding more bad reports than good.
I sell advertising for a living and I called up a UFF agent to see if they were interested in advertising ( I didn’t know exactly what the company was). He said he was interested in advertising and wanted to meet with me, but he wanted to present his product to me as well.
We met (him and another lady) and they gave a great presentation.
(Even though it was very obvious that the girl was desparate for the sale).
I was convinced that this was a great program and I wanted to start as soon as possible. I am getting married in a week and a half. My fiance and myself are very very busy people and work a lot, but we can be poor at managing our money, so I thought this would be a great idea.
However, being the halfway intelligent person that I am
I definitely had my doubts because usually when something sounds too good to be true it usually is. It also made me really nervous to take out another 10,000-20,000 loan! It was suggested to me that if I could, take out up to 20,000. In the back of my mind I have been thinking to myself, “Why would I take out that large of a loan to “save” money.” It was a really odd concept to me after I gave it logical thought.
The weird thing, however, was that one of their references was the company of who did my mortgage and who I really trust. I have been trying to get in contact with him the last couple of days, but haven’t heard back from him yet. I will be interested to see what he has to say and I will post when he does.
Thanks for the info.
I was on the fence also but I am not going to pursue thanks for the input. I woul be interestedin hearing more if more is offered.
To add to my comment above…..
I was able to get in touch with my loan officer.
He told me that they had been to his office and gave a presentation. He said that he wasn’t sure what to think of it yet. It seemed to him that it’s just the simple process of paying more per month on your mortgage to pay it down quicker, but he was going to give them the benefit of the doubt for now and see if he could learn more about it and see if there was more involved. He said, ” I would imagine that there would have to be more involved than what I am reading in to it, but I have listened to two presentations and I still haven’t figured it out yet. I will let you know more as I learn, but for now I would wait.” He also thought that the fact that it was a Multi Level Marketing program that it probably isn’t all what it is cracked up to be.
Actual research into the math used, beyond reading someone’s negative review of what they thought they understood from a seminar, leads to a different conclusion. First, it is more than putting a little “extra” money on the mortgage. Most people don’t have “extra”, but if they’ve had their house a while they do have equity. Second, opening an equity line is NOT getting a loan – it is opening a line of credit from which you can draw, like a credit card. The software is constantly checking between the HELOC and your mortgage to determine when to make extra payments from the money available in your HELOC – quite a bit more sophisticated than a spreadsheet – something I have quite a lot of experience in since I’ve been a working engineer for over a decade.
As one poster said – show the results if you are doing this on your own. If there is MLM related with it, so what? If you just want the product, buy it and use it. There are now over 60,000 people using this to pay down their mortgages, and the research I’ve found shows that most of them are ahead of their initial projected rates.
Why knock the guarantee. The program won’t work if you don’t do what the program says to do. That’s the whole point. If you put all of your info in it, but then don’t follow it’s instructions, you must not be expecting it to work.
Here’s a real news report about it – NOT just marketing magazines for the program: *****You’re linking to a company-produced presentation – nothing real about that!****
Eric,
Thanks for the comedy.
“First, it is more than putting a little “extra” money on the mortgage. Most people don’t have “extra”, but if they’ve had their house a while they do have equity.”
Which UFF agents exploit by using that equity to have the client open a HELOC and pay the $3500 fee.
“Second, opening an equity line is NOT getting a loan – it is opening a line of credit from which you can draw, like a credit card.”
A loan is debt. A used HELOC is debt. A used credit card is debt. It’s all debt.
“The software is constantly checking between the HELOC and your mortgage to determine when to make extra payments from the money available in your HELOC – quite a bit more sophisticated than a spreadsheet – something I have quite a lot of experience in since I’ve been a working engineer for over a decade.”
The MMA is a shell game, shuffling debt from the mortgage to the HELOC, making it appear like the software is doing something amazing. It isn’t. From UFF published examples, it even sucks at determining what payments to make and when, and any engineer would be able to tell you that at a glance. As long as the minimum monthly HELOC balance is above $0, this HELOC shuffle game is not optimal. UFF examples aren’t even close.
I doubt you are an engineer. I don’t know any engineers who would be sucked in by the UFF spiel or be unethical enough to sell the MMA.
Craig
I’m a professional real estate investor. I make a living buying houses, fixing them up and turning them into rentals. Managing debt is a huge part of my business and my livelihood. I’ve been doing this for 6 years, and the housing crunch hasn’t slowed down my business, because I analyze every deal based on risk, cash flow and future appreciation prospects.
This is a scam and a pyramid scheme. All this is is HELOC arbitrage, and the $3500 software fee is unnecessary.
One key component of this is the assumption that paying down mortgage debt is a good thing. For most people, it is not. Paying off mortgage debt is like putting your cash into a savings account that you cannot withdraw from.
Please consider talking to a financial advisor before embarking on any prepayment mortgage program. Instead of investing your cash in paying down your mortgage, I recommend putting that cash into an investment vehicle that suits your needs (stocks, bonds, real estate). This way, your money has a chance to appreciate.
Since another of the author’s articles refers to Dave Ramsey and his methods, I’d point out that he would totally disagree with you on this, “One key component of this is the assumption that paying down mortgage debt is a good thing. For most people, it is not. Paying off mortgage debt is like putting your cash into a savings account that you cannot withdraw from.” This stems from the mentality that people understand how to invest (land, stocks, etc). What they CAN invest in is the equity in their home, and cutting out $100K or more in interest. You do mention real estate as an investment vehicle – how is one’s own home not that?
Eric,
Your response to my post, as well as your post above use faulty logic and are factually incorrect. I was tempted not to justify your post with a response, but since your points are so easy to tear apart, I’m going to do just that.
Paying down debt is not an investment, as you propose in your post. Investment is buying something in the hopes of future appreciation. Take an example of someone who is paying 7% interest. Subtracting the tax benefit of paying mortgage interest, the ‘real’ interest rate is only 4.5%. As long as that person can find another investment vehicle (perhaps through a financial advisor as I suggest) that yields in excess of 4.5%, they should always use that money to invest instead of to pay down the mortgage. It’s simple math. Bonds yield more, stocks yield more in the long run. Leveraged real estate deals yield a lot more, but those require expertise like what i;ve built up with my partners over the years.
You’re obviously involved in the UFF scam. It’s pretty sad and pathetic that you’re stealing people’s money through this ponzi scheme.
Matt,
You are mistaken, as others have been. It is so easy to assume someone is “involved” with something online when they don’t agree with your points. I am NOT involved with UFF. I have looked at the program and considered using it. I’m on a fact-finding mission.
ALL of the arguments against it are of the nature you have shared (ignoring the knee-jerk, “it’s MLM, it must be a scam, run for your lives” reactions.)
You point out that “Leveraged real estate deals yield a lot more, but those require expertise like what i;ve built up with my partners over the years.” Also that you have to get an investment that will yield more than what the interest pay down would yield (4.5% in your example). ALL of those things require certain things to happen for them to be better than paying off a mortgage – something that can actually be done w/o much extra thought.
What I can’t find are those people who can honestly deny that the ones using the program, and cutting years off their mortgage, are doing something beneficial. All of this “keep the mortgage, use your extra somewhere else” smacks of “you’re going to have a car payment anyway, why not lease and have something new” mentality. What happened to actually owning things?
The ONLY thing I owe on is my house. IF I could take my 29.5 years remaining on my mortgage, cut that down to 10 years, and then for the next 20 put the kind of money I’m using on my mortgage into investments, etc – like you recommend – how is that not good? I’ve have WAY more money to invest monthly than I do now. I’d also have money for kid’s college (cash) since my child is only 3 months old now.
Also, no matter how many times I provide links to this news report, they disappear. So I’ve yet to hear anyone comment on this:
***** Links to UFF propaganda removed again. All future comments will be deleted in their entirety if you link to UFF advertisements again. *****
Interestingly enough there is alot more research done on united first financial than I thought. What i would like to bring to your attention is like Eric said above, there are approximately 60,000 using the MMA. Common sense tells me that I would bet at least half of those people have researched the product as well. Seems to me like you’re calling them stupid. That’s rude.
My next guess is the next anti United First Financial person will say something like “Yeah, stupid enough to spend $3,500.” Predictable? Yes.
“What i would like to bring to your attention is like Eric said above, there are approximately 60,000 using the MMA. Common sense tells me that I would bet at least half of those people have researched the product as well. Seems to me like you’re calling them stupid. That’s rude.”
I don’t know about “stupid”, but I would call them “gullible”, “too trusting” and “a salesman’s dream”.
The positive research done on UFF was commissioned by UFF. The industry rags that report glowingly on them are small publications with high UFF advertising content. The E&Y award was sponsored by E&Y, not investigated by E&Y.
If the MMA really worked, and I wish it did, it would be huge. Think about it for a second. They’re claiming massive savings. Everyone would be demanding it. It’s been over 2 years.
If you’re right and there are 60,000 clients, that’s not a lot to show for such a “ground breaking” product.
But considering UFF nets $1000 per sale, they’ve made $90 million.
Agents split $2500 per sale (assuming the entire $2500 is paid out). A conservative estimate is 10,000 agents. The mean average agent has made $15,000 on the MMA. Of course, a few agents have recruited well, and are doing great. As with any MLM, most agents are making next to nothing.
This is a bad deal for almost everyone involved, except a few agents and UFF themselves.
I got this product and paid $3500. I just found out that my line of credit was suspended due to the home mortgage crisis. I have to pay off my line of credit which is $10,000.00. $3500 for the software and $7500 for the money applied to my mortgage balance. I can no longer use my HELOC until the propergy value in my area goes up. This is sick. I hope no one buys this software. I now have to deplete all of my savings to pay the 10K balance on my HELOC. I am very, very, very sad. If some sees this message, don’t buy this software or get involved with this program. Sincerely.
Investments fraud includes FAILURE to DISCLOSE or to tell the WHOLE TRUTH.
Reference the recent Citi, UBS, and Merril settlements for auction rate securities which had been IMO fraudulently sold as “cash equivalents” when those companies knew or should have known those instruments were not reliably cash equivalents over time without their support.
Wow, it’s eerily similar… Do the mma salesman claim a heloc debt is a cash equivalent?… that it’s not a mortgage?… even that it’s not debt? That it’s not risky? That it saves you money in NET? That it pays of your mortgage faster? Do they tell the WHOLE Truth upfront, before they “extract” their $3,500 swindle?
Sometimes the law holds people who assist in furthering the fraud liable even if they did not know about the fraud. There is an imputed duty of care, in that the purveyors of investment schemes are held accountable to known even if they are actually unaware. For example, as a matter of law someone who holds themselves out to be an “Agent” for another is accountable for illegal actions in which they participate even if they are unaware, as a matter of law.
To sustain a claim of fraud, it is required to prove each of the nine elements of fraud:
(1) a representation; (mma saves money)
(2) falsity of the representation; (it does not save money, it is a net financial loss)
(3) materiality of the representation; (money savings is the reason someone buys it – “pay off in less time”)
(4) speaker’s knowledge of the falsity of the representation; (intentional construction of the sales presentation, agent training, and marketing claims and intentional omission of the whole truth from those materials and presentations. Incomplete numerical comparisons that falsely and misleadingly show savings where none in fact exist)
(5) the speaker’s intent it should be relied upon; (they hold it out to be true, sophisticated software, run a simulation of customer’s own data, etc…)
(6) the hearer’s ignorance of the falsity of the representation; (it is somewhat complex financially due to the unnecessary heloc smoke and mirrors, etc… however proof of the falsity is obvious to educated professionals who take care and perform simple numerical calculations)
(7) the hearer’s reliance on the representation; (that’s the prime reason(s) the software is purchased, why else would someone pay $3,500 for “budgeting software” )
(8) the hearer’s right to rely on the representation; and (they are being sold the product by an “agent” who represents the principal.)
(9) the hearer’s consequent and proximate injury caused by reliance on the representation. (loss of $3,500, loss on arbitrage operations, both further compounded over time!)
IMO all 9 elements have been quite clearly satisfied.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/property/smoke-and-mirrors/2004/09/28/1096137225560.html
I purchased what was touted to be the “latest and greatest MMA” in May from a member of my church. To this day I do not have the “latest and greatest” version, but the old version which requires moving funds back and forth endlessly. I have contacted the representative and his co-horts and asked for my money back. I was told I could have it——————a month ago. No money yet. Today I received an e-mail saying that my request for a refund had been denied as United First Financial had done nothing wrong. But, I still do not have what I paid for. Has anyone been able to recoup their monies from this company?
Carole,
I doubt version 4 will be any easier to follow than version 3. The irony is the only worthwhile transaction you need are the few that are directed to your mortgage. Everything else to do with your HELOC is just a smokescreen.
UFF is under no obligation to refund your money. They only promised that if you have the income and expenses you listed and signed your name to, and if you followed the MMA software directions, the MMA would pay down the mortgage as fast as your report said it would. They really only guarantee that 1+1=2. That I’m aware, the guarantee doesn’t cover upgrades, customer satisfaction, or anything of the sort.
UFF strongly suggests marketing within church groups. Your agent and fellow churchgoer probably knows very little about mortgages – very few UFF agents do. UFF has some very clever marketing that impresses a lot of people. Your agent may still believe that he/she did you a service.
For any hope for a refund, I suggest you contact the Better Business Bureau in Utah. Here is the UFF page there:
http://utah.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=139&bbb=1166&firm=22021100
They are up to 9 BBB cases now, though they have all been “resolved”. I suspect this BBB entry of the parent company is the only one they care about. I doubt UFF will care if you make a BBB complaint against your agent – agents are like human shields to a company like UFF. I believe your only hope is a BBB complaint against the parent company.
Do you have any promises in writing that were broken? Anything that refers to version 4? That will help, as your argument should be that you did not receive what was promised. That either version of the MMA is overpriced, inefficient and more difficult than prepaying the mortgage yourself makes the MMA a terrible purchase, but those points probably won’t get you your money back.
Good luck, and please update us on your progress.
Regards,
Craig Hansen
Thanks for the info, Craig. I will contact the Utah BBB and let them know that I have fulfilled my part of the bargain (that being my check!) and that I have not received what I paid for (Will I EVER???) Doubtful. Live and learn, but it is true that they do prey on those whose resources are limited. In my case, this fellow from my church held several “meetings” for teachers in our school district because we “deserved to be the first to know about this VERY fine program.”
I can only hope that the BBB in Utah is on to these people and that is is not the first complaint they’ve seen.
Carole
I urge you to NOT GIVE UP. Keep complaining to anyone who will listen until you get your refund!
Just another get rich quick, MLM scheme. Google Chad Wickline. He is in this one too.
I Googled him, and I see he has already been prosecuted and convicted in another debt elimination scheme, but where is the link to UFF?
Carole, I feel bad that someone you trusted from your church introduced you to something you found fraudulent. There are so many “schemes” out there that are only interested in your money. I found a list of laws regarding MLMs and it sounds like they were not operating within the laws of a reputable MLM.
Here are the parameters for operation:
You can’t make claims about money you could make until someone is signed up.
Lifestyle claims are illegal.
You have to have a product available with value.
You can potentially earn more than the person above you. (If you can’t then it’s an illegal pyramid scheme)
Front end loading is illegal. (Paying for extra product that you are not going to re-sell just to advance)
Getting paid to recruit others is illegal. (If you are not purchasing the product to use and you are just calling people to get them into the business).
I hope that this helps clairfy for anyone who is thinking of paying for product from an MLM. I have come across people who do some reputable MLM jobs like skin care and kitchen products and scrapbooking items so they are out there. Companies like this one make it difficult for these people to operate their business and make others suspicious about ALL MLMs.
The fact is, financial scams and MLM’s run riot through congregations like pink-eye at a daycare. You’re even more likely to be hosed by someone from your congregation than you are at an “investor’s club,” which is saying something! Conmen will always seek out a ready collection of trusting suckers. Despite my a-religious nature, one of my closest friends is a very serious Reverend, and such scams and the way they propagate is something that his church has trained it’s ministers to identify and deal with, just as they would with family and personal problems in their parishoners(sp?). In conversation he’s quite spirited and caustic on the impact that such schemes wreak on families and friendships.
That just reiterates that you need to do your research on these companies before paying anything out.
Just as someone stated in an earlier post, make sure you do your homework…even if it’s someone from your church. If it sounds too good to be true, it IS.
I found this site while trying to get more useful information about United First Financial. Some of the posts have been useful, but some are just negative outbursts.
First of all, I read so many posts that call this a scam. What is everyone’s definition of a scam? Are some people confusing the word “scam” with the word “over-priced”?
For example, I was in an upscale store last week and I saw a women purchasing some newly released designer items. I saw a women’s designer bra with a price tag of $150.00, a designer handbag for $2000.00, and designer shoes for $900.00. All of these items could be purchased at WalMart at a cheaper price. Is this a scam?? These “designer” items are advertised in glossy magazines! Are these designer items really better than the WalMart items? Is the designer store over-charging and scamming their customers?? Are the glossy magazines and the designer store’s salesperson participating in the scam? If a customer buys and then wears a $150.00 designer bra for three days and then attempts to get a full refund, will that customer get her money back? No, probably not.
In addition, is WalMart scamming customers too? Isn’t it possible for us to make our own clothes and shoes and handbags? Can’t we go on the Internet and find FREE instructions on how to make your own bras, shoes, and handbags? Isn’t it possible to find the materials to make these items for a really cheap price? Go to Yahoo or Google and try, it’s easy!! I just really think there is a difference between “scam” and something being “over-priced.”
In addition, “over-priced” could mean “over-priced” to ME, but my neighbor could think the same thing is worth every penny spent.
Everyone seems to agree that anybody with a home loan can send in additional payments in an effort to pay off a home loan faster. That is easy, right!
But what if I send in an extra $300 this year and another extra $1000 next year, exactly how much money in interest will that save me and exactly how much time gets reduced off of my 30 year loan? Who can give me that answer at 8PM on a Sunday night? Who can I call Monday morning and how quickly can my question be answered? Somebody out there, please direct me to someone that can answer my questions, right now TODAY? Give me a phone number to a specific person that will answer these questions for FREE. FREE!
After you give me that phone number, I am going to give that phone number to all of my friends, family, and co-workers. Let’s see how quickly all of the calls get directed into a voicemail. How long before the number gets disconnected and the person disappears. Imagine all of the complaints that will happen as the phone number gets spread to everyone around the United States and people begin to get busy signals and no one responds to hundreds of voicemail messages.
Eventually the person WORKING that FREE info phone number is going to have to charge a fee. If a real, live person isn’t doing the math to figure out the numbers I want, I need to learn on my own how to do it with a mortgage calulator or buy some type of computer program. Just because United First Financial charges $3,500 doesn’t make it a scam. Is it over-priced? Maybe, maybe not…. It just seems like expensive, designer software that costs $3,500.
Somebody mentioned that there is a similar product for far less that $3,500 and therefore the $3,500 is a scam. Let me ask you a question. If you buy a brand new 2009 Ford today and then a week later you see it advertised for $2000 less at another dealer, did your salesperson and your dealer scam you? I really would like to know if the cheaper option is exactly the same as the $3,500 software?
There are price differences for almost everything we buy, but it is up to the consumer to shop around. It is not a scam if the consumer does not shop around, is it?
As for the “money-saving” claims, we already ALL agree that making extra payments will reduce the loan balance, the interest charges, and the length to payoff. In the end, the amount of money saved depends on the amount of extra money the consumer sends in to pay down the loan. Could someone direct me to the location on the United First Financial web site where their “money-saving” claims are NOT TRUE. If somebody wants to keep track of all of that and other credit card payments using $3,500 worth of software, how is that a scam? How else are you going to keep track of it?
As for the home equity line of credit, what is the big deal? People use home equity lines of credit to buy boats, cars, jewelry, fur coats, vacations, pay college tuition, plastic surgery, nose jobs, breast implants, lipo-suction, re-modeling and additions to homes, and many other things! In this situation, somebody is using a home equity line of credit to reduce the interest charges on a homeloan? Hello? So what?!
One of the posts mentioned that agents do not have a license and have no training. A license or training to sell software that keeps track of loans and payments? Everyone is saying how easy it is to do all of this on your own without buying $3,500 worth of software and now somebody says the agents do not have a license or training? A license for what?
Someone else mentioned that the agents do not have the software or have a home loan themselves therefore it is a scam. A gas station clerk can sell diesel gas to a truck driver but not personally own a vehicle that uses diesel fuel. Right? Is the trucker going to ask the clerk if the he/she owns a vehicle that uses deisel fuel? If the clerk says, “No” is the trucker going to say “This is a scam, I am calling the Better Business Bureau?”
Another post mentions MLM. MLM? If it is a legal MLM organization, what is the problem? After the company receives the $3,500 from a customer, who really cares how the money gets divided as long as it is legal. When you buy your groceries everyweek and spend about $150 – $250, what happens to that money? The cashier gets paid minimum wage and the supervisor gets paid more than the cashier and the Store Manager gets paid more with a bonus and the district manager gets paid more with a bigger bonus. Is that a scam?
If I buy software for $3,500 and it keeps track of what I want it to keep track of, should I be afraid because it is being sold by a MLM salesperson?
There was another post that mentioned the Better Business Bureau (BBB). I was so happy to see the link, because I was going to check them out with the BBB. They had 9 complaints and they were all resolved.
I am still confused? Why are people still saying this is a scam? Does it make sense to simply call this expensive, designer software for $3,500?? Is that a better description than scam???
Everything you need to pay off your mortgage in the same amount of time (or less) than UFF will tell you can be done by getting a spreadsheet or software that costs anywhere from $0 to $99. It will tell you at any given time how much longer it will take to pay off your mortgage.
“In this situation, somebody is using a home equity line of credit to reduce the interest charges on a homeloan? Hello? So what?!”
No, the HELOC just gives an illusion of saving interest. It saves, at most, $25 or so per month, and are usually cancelled out or exceeded by the interest on the $3500 fee. The bulk of the savings are from simple prepayment that never needed the HELOC in the first place.
This is the crux of the scam argument – the HELOC or CC used by the MMA have next to nothing to do with the savings – they’re just there to look impressive. The architecture of the MMA is based on a lie.
Lie to get someone to spend $3500? That’s a scam.
“Does it make sense to simply call this expensive, designer software for $3,500?? Is that a better description than scam???”
No, “scam” is a better fit.
Kevin makes valid points. There are some people who think that all MLMs are scams and they always will. Those are the people who miss opportunities. They just don’t get it.
In the 80s there were pyramid programs that were outlawed. The laws I stated earlier have to be followed, if they are not, they are penalized. The ones who cannot get past those old pyramid scams are the ones who miss out on some good products from the reputable MLM companies.
Have these people never purchased from an MLM? At all, ever?
MLMs basically offer overpriced products. I’ve yet to find one that has anything close to a superior product. The high price isn’t because of something special or high quality. It’s because many levels of commissions must be paid.
MLMs aren’t required to follow laws. Our government has chosen to not act against MLMs that break the laws on the books. And organizations like the DSA lobby heavily to make sure it stays that way.
Kevin makes valid points. The strawman argument of “you can just send in extra payments” has never yet stood up. Most people have next to nothing extra at the end of the month in actual cash. BUT, with a HELOC they might be able to send it 3 or 4 times a normal mortgage payment – which makes a MUCH bigger long term dent than $100 or $200.
I’d really love to see a thought-provoking response; something beyond “MLM – run away in horror” and “just use a spreadsheet and send in some extra money.”
As you know Eric, you’ve not been permitted to post here because you keep trying to post links to UFF promotional materials. This site isn’t for promotion of MLMs!
But I had to let this one slip through just to show how people believe in UFF.
You’ve used as an example a consumer with NO EXTRA CASH to send to their mortgage. Then you say that they could use a HELOC to send a bunch of money to their mortgage.
WHY THIS IS BAD: The consumer will be BORROWING on the HELOC at a HIGHER INTEREST RATE and using that money to pay down their regular mortgage that has a LOWER INTEREST RATE.
The consumer is not ahead by doing what you suggest. They get further behind because they are paying a higher interest rate.
I can hear you now: “No, that’s not how it really works.”
YES, THAT IS HOW IT WORKS.
MLMs pay direct sellers to promote in introduce their products. This saves them from having to advertise. It also give individuals the opportunity to earn more based on how many people they introduce to the product.
Have you never purchased Avon? Pampered Chef? Mary Kay? Arbonne? Tupperwear? etc?? I don’t believe any of those things are over priced.
Eric, if you “send it 3 or 4 times a normal mortgage payment” from your HELOC, you just created a new debt 3 or 4 times the size of a normal mortgage payment.
You’re robbing Peter to pay Paul. With good timing of income and delaying expenses, you might save a few bucks.
UFF are the ones making the extraordinary claims. Let them demonstrate clearly, with all money movements out in the open, how to beat a simple DIY approach.
But first, they need to demonstrate they can beat a simple DIY approach at all. You can find examples of UFF agents losing at Fatwallet, Scam dot com, and most recently:
http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/united-first-financial-money-merge-accounts-scam-or-legit.html
Start reading UFF agent James Barnes’ challenge of August 18th, and JimmyDaGeek’s answer on August 19th. This one is nice because it buries the new “you can’t beat the MMA for multiple debts” claim.
Eric,
I also recently posted a conversation I had with a UFF agent and his upline to Scam dot com. In those emails, I used simple (and free) online mortgage calculators to beat the MMA claims, and the agent agreed with my numbers, until it got really embarrassing for him.
http://scam.com/showthread.php?t=46373
Tracey,
How are your book sales going? Riding on coat tails.
Why thanks for asking Eddy! The book sales are exceeding projections by quite a bit. So I guess that means I’m doing well!