Ufirst Money Merge Account: Resistance is futile
One of the most common forms of “training” offered to members of multi-level marketing companies (also known as direct sales, pyramid schemes, dual marketing, networking marketing, etc) is Overcoming Objections. Why is that such a key? Because all of the ones that I’ve seen have overpriced, underperforming products, and consumers are usually pretty quick to see that.
So distributors, agents, representatives, or whatever they’re called must be skilling in overcoming every single objection you could have. In Mary Kay, consultants are trained: “No does not mean no. It means that she needs more information.” Clearly, the only answer that is accepted is “yes.”
United First Financial trains its “agents” in the fine art of overcoming objections, and today I’m going to share with you a couple of them.
The software costs too much. $3,500 is a lot of money.
(Those who say this are exactly right. Consumers could do for free what this software does, even though they want you to believe it’s magic math that helps you pay off your mortgage. It’s not magic math. It’s simply payment of your mortgage above and beyond your regular monthly payment.)
The script:
First of all, people are realizing tens, and even hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings by utilizing the MMA program. Even if they are able to save as little as $35,000, that is a 1000% return on their initial investment in the form of interest savings. If your customer were to save $350,000, that is a 10,000% return on investment, in the form of interest savings. Realizing that type of savings over a twelve year term is an 833% annual return, again in the form of interest savings. To top it off, the program is guaranteed as long as your customer’s monthly income and expenses stay within the guidelines of the initial Money Merge Analysis.
In our experience, the average client realizes over $3,500 in future interest savings by using the MMA program in a matter of 3-5 months. This means that your customer will most likely realize an interest savings that was greater than the $3500 original investment.
It is very important to point out that the $3500 is not paid out of the client’s checking account, but is usually paid directly from the HELOC. In other words, the bank is lending them the money for the MMA program. This payment should not result in any change to your customer’s current lifestyle in any way. This is not unlike rolling the cost of refinancing a mortgage into the loan with the exception that with the MMA, we are not incurring additional long term debt, but showing your customer how to become debt free in one third to one half the time.
This is probably a good time that I can save you $20,000 in interest without you paying me a cent. Even more can be saved (for free!) by simply paying extra money toward your mortgage each month. These figures in the script sound impressive, but they’re simply window dressing. This program does nothing that a consumer can’t do without it.
I can do this myself.
(Of course you can. I’ve been telling readers this all along. The program doesn’t save you money. Simple prepayment of your mortgage does. You don’t need to waste $3,500 to pay off your mortgage early.)
The script:
You might if you were programmed and conditioned to calculate the exact amount of money to be transferred to your primary mortgage each and every month. The MMA program is set up so that the maximum amount of funds are sent to principal, while the least amount is paid in interest. The MMA is a finely tuned system that is maximizing the power of your money. There is much more involved than just taking your discretionary income and applying it to your first mortgage each month. Using the MMA Program will accelerate the payoff much faster than a monthly transfer to principal. Please do not underestimate the power of the program.
Also included in the system is a real time “Financial Dashboard” that continually gives you feedback every time you make an entry into the software. This allows you to make better decisions when it comes to capital expenditures and planning for a better future.
In a nutshell, the MMA program helps your customer develop better spending habits. For example, ask them if they are where they want to be financially. If not, why? It is most likely because they are not conditioned or programmed to send extra money to their mortgage company. They need the MMA. The majority of clients who have been on the MMA program for over two years are still on the program, and in most cases are ahead of their projected schedule. The MMA program does in fact help people change the way they look at becoming debt free in a positive and rewarding way.
The MMA not only offers our customers an interest cancellation program, but generally offers them a reserve of funds that can be accessed in case of an emergency.
Of course the powers that be must tell you that there’s fancy math involved here. You wouldn’t pay $3,500 if you didn’t think it was fancy. So the United First Financial people direct you to do a money shuffle each month that saves you a few dollars… .literally. The real savings is from the prepayment, not this “optimal timing” nonsense.
But don’t take my word for it. Professor Jack Guttentag (very smart man) has determined that you’ll save a couple of hundred dollars a year with the money shuffle. The real savings comes from…. drum roll…. the simple prepayment of the mortgage. In Australia, lawmakers have determined that these debt reduction programs are essentially sold based on a bunch of lies.
Related Posts
- Misleading consumers in the marketing of United First Financial Money Merge Account
- United First Financial scam: You’re using the bank’s money to pay down your mortgage
- Joe Taxpayer’s five part Money Merge Analysis
- United First Financial: Don’t believe the hype
- The UFF Money Merge Account money shuffle explained
Tracy, you have a fundamental problem with a lot of things, such as understanding that a deal doesn’t have to be THE BEST deal in order to still be considered a good deal. You act like, if the person isn’t going about the very best way of saving money, then their method is crap, fradulent, and a scam, and a waste of time. The fact is, there’s probably 100s of things a person can do throughout the normal day to save a little money here and there, that they don’t do them. As well as 100s of different decisions they could made differently in a day that they didn’t do. And I guarantee you’re guilty of many of these just as every single person in the world.
I’m just curious, do you feel scammed everytime you go to a restaurant, because you’re paying a higher price for having someone serve you… when you could cleaned off the table yourself, go to the kitchen to bring your food back yourself when it was ready, and dispose of all the items afterwards yourself? Are you writing blog entries about how everyone’s an idiot for paying for someone else to do something they could’ve themselves?
And if all this stuff takes no time to do it yourselves, let’s say I wanted to know things like interest remaining, payoff date, years to payoff, all my monthly expenses, etc. But then I wanted to know how all that changes when I buy my new TV, and then again when I decide to do some closet remodeling, and then after I go out to eat, and virtually anytime any transaction of any kind was made. And then look at all assumed transactions for the next three months, fiddle with the numbers to see what effect that would have on everything overall. Maybe I want to switch gears, and instead of focusing on my 1st mortgate, I want to instead put more emphasis on my much smaller but higher 8% interest 2nd mortgage. Would that save me more money in long term? Depends on many things. And then in a few months, I want to go on vacation, so need to save up a little, but in order to do that I need to be a little less aggressive for on the mortgage for a bit. How much less aggressive? And what all will that change?
I could go on and on all day with ‘what if’ scenarios that I’m not about to spend all day on the kitchen table calculating all this stuff out. And that’s why I don’t.
So, if you’re willing to prove to me that you methods take no time, then here’s how you can do it. I’ll give you whatever numbers you need, and give you several example scenarios, and you can show me just how fast you can come with the answers, verses me plugging those numbers into MMA and hitting submit. Otherwise, I’d have to say that you’re the one that’s lieing and scamming people.
I’m supposed to believe that the idiot who says he won’t just mail one extra check a month to his mortgage (for free!) is interested in how his payoff date changes if he buys a new TV? Not likely!
But here’s a hint for you: If you buy the TV instead of putting the money toward your mortgage, it will take you longer to pay off your mortgage.
Do I think you really care? Of course not.
Here’s the bottom line: You can pay off your mortgage faster and with less time and effort WITHOUT United First Financial. Feel free to email me the analysis that UFF did for you. One of our readers will take the exact same numbers and run the DIY method for you, which will take him about 14 seconds to do. The proof will be in the numbers. Faster. Easier. Cheaper.
And again, using the MMA (versus DIY) isn’t the same as eating at a restaurant (versus DIY). With MMA you are paying money to be inconvenienced and have your time wasted. With the restaurant, it’s the exact opposite. You’re paying to put forth less effort and time for a meal.
I don’t think we can help you, though. If you’re not willing to apply logic and reason to any of this, so I suspect this discussion is now over.
P.S. Paying extra money toward a debt with a higher interest rate (instead of one with a lower interest rate) ALWAYS saves you money. No need for MMA to get that answer.
Robert,
Stop trying to make accelerating debt repayment look difficult. It isn’t.
Whether you have the MMA or not, you are still doing all the work. You pay the bills. You pay the mortgage.
In the case of the MMA, you also log into that site or software, and enter your new financial information. If the MMA recommends a transfer from the HELOC to the mortgage, you then have to go and do that transfer yourself.
In the case of DIY, you take your remaining bank balance, subtract a contingency, and send that to the mortgage.
Or, if multiple debts are involved, you send the remainder toward the debt with the highest interest rate.
That’s it. As an example, say a $1725 balance, and you want a $1000 contingency. Guess what? Sent $725 extra to your mortgage.
And that will beat your precious MMA. Every time.
Want to track it? Any number of mortgage calculators and spreadsheets will do fine. Vertex42 dot com has a good spreadsheet template.
Send over your sample numbers. I don’t seem to tire of these comparisons.
Wait a minute. Are you under the impression that I paid 3500 just so I can click a button and have a check sent to my lender? LOL. Oh my gosh, if that were the truth, then everything you’ve said so far has been completely true, and I’ll eat crow.
So, how familiar with this product are you? Can you give me a rundown of everything it does? Because, you are aware that it’s more than writing a check to heloc or bank, right? Every scenario I gave you before, I can give you the answers to all that in just a click of a button. And taht’s just a small fraction everything this software will do.
And yes, I am interested in what buying a tv will do. Because before, the only calculated result I would’ve done on my own is subtracting the cost from my checking account to see what’s left. Now I can see how much it’d reduce my total interest left, or how much an effect it would be if I waited 2 months instead, down to the cent. Now that I can click a button and know that and an unimited number of other stuff instantly, then sure I’m interested.
So we do agree on one thing, I sure as hell don’t need to pay 3500 for someone to tell me to send extra money to my mortgage. I’ve been told that all my life, for free, and still wasn’t doing it on my own. But I have a feeling that you don’t even have the slightest clue what all the mma software can do. I don’t even know what half the stuff in there is yet, I’m still learning more about it all the time. When I logged in a few weeks ago, it was already updated with some new stuff that I haven’t really investigated yet.
So then, to determine the value of this software on a user by user basis, I guess teh user would have to evaluate each feature bullet point (which is a pretty long bulleted list), and determine the value of each. I won’t even include free updates, versions, and 24hr customer support for life. And then factor in the amount of money it’d help me save and maybe even factor in the drive and motivation that it adds.
But seriously, if you don’t even know what all the software does, it’s a bit fradulent of you to be taking a stance on it, isn’t it? Nevertheless, since you claim you can everything the software does in 1 minute, on your own, then yes… let’s definately do this.
“Maybe I want to switch gears, and instead of focusing on my 1st mortgage, I want to instead put more emphasis on my much smaller but higher 8% interest 2nd mortgage.”
Why would one pay an extra cent toward their first mortgage while they have a higher rate second note?
Robert, even though you’re already in the program, I will offer you the secret which requires little effort let alone the daily monitoring of every penny going in and out:
Line up all your debt according to after tax interest rate. Make all minimum payments each month, and send any extra money you have to the highest rate debt. That’s it.
To an outsider, it’s clear that an agent has brainwashed you, you believe that something which takes seconds each month (the decision how much to add to your mortgage payment) is somehow so complex as to be humanly impossible. I am anxiously waiting for your praise of “factorial math”, the MMA process by which it take a computer to consider 3 billion ways to line up 10 debts to decide which is larger and which smaller. This is a math concept most 4 year olds have already mastered, yet the agents have likely convinced you that you cannot do it on your own.
Do you need a computer to balance your checkbook?
No, Robert, I didn’t say that the software sends a check. Yes, Robert, I’m aware of all the calculations that the software does.
Except what you don’t seem to understand is that all those calculations are irrelevant. MMA is promoting the idea that it uses “factorial math” to figure out how to manage your debts. The problem is that no consumer needs to use factorial math to manage their debts, so that’s useless.
Read about factorial math in this post by Craig:
http://www.sequence-inc.com/fraudfiles/2008/08/30/united-first-financials-new-math/
As for purchasing the television, yes, the do-it-yourself method can tell you how your mortgage payoff is affected by purchasing the TV. All you do is remove the cost of the TV from the mortgage payments you were going to make in your free and efficient spreadsheet or amortization schedule.Voila! You will see your payoff date change.
Again, I go back to the concept that you couldn’t be bothered to write one extra check a month without the MMA software, so I can’t imagine you being interested in running 100 different scenarios with the TV.
And as for the factorial math… As you saw in Craig’s article, the factorial math doesn’t matter. There is ONE right way to pay off your debts at any given time, and it doesn’t require any fancy math. All it requires is that you look at your list of debts and send your extra money to the one with the highest interest rate. Yes, it’s really that simple.
So thanks again, Robert, for your participation. I really couldn’t make up material as interesting and ridiculous as what you post. We enjoy having you here!
I found your articles and thread as I am looking for additional information about UFF.
I am not an agent, nor do I own the software- However, it did spark my interest because I’ve encountered alot of people who are excited and feel empowered by this program. So, being an inquisitive mind…I thought I’d check it out. I have to say that I can see where Robert is coming from. It seems that he was overwhelmed by his financial situation and now feels empowered and in control of what is money and can look at it every day on his software – that can be empowering.
I am a professional hair color specialist – people pay me over $300 every 6-8 weeks to come in and make them look beautiful. Could they do if for less..probably, do it themselves…absolutely! But what I do for $300 every visit is empower them with a service that gives them the confidence. It seems that this is what the program does for people who feel out of control, and they are willing to pay for it.
As a professional in my field, as you are – Tracy & Craig in your field, it really is easy to find all the things wrong with someone else doing what I could have better – and it really sucks when they figure out a way to charge for it and get the money they’re asking for. Does it make it a scam – I don’t think so. Is it fraud – I’ve found too many people that are ecstatic about it (so I don’t think it’s a scam), will the company go out of business…who thought banks would fold?? I think we are at a place in the economy that people are looking for some empowerment and light at the debt. Seems like UFF figured out a way to charge for a service that you could only talk about in blogs, on CNN and random websites…certainly not charge $3500 or whatever they’re asking. People are willing to pay that much to be empowered – because Hope Sells.
Happy Holidays!
Jane – You illustrate a common misconception about the UFF product. Paying for the Money Merge Account is NOT like paying you $300 to get her hair colored. It’s like paying a 5-year-old $300 to color her hair. The MMA provides poor results with a cumbersome, time-consuming process. How can anyone who can’t even by bothered to TRY the least bit on their own, be motivated to spend several hours a month with this product? The money spent on UFF doesn’t give the consumer a BETTER way to deal with their finances, unfortunately.
I disagree with Tracy. Tracy says it’s like paying a 5-year-old to colour your hair. I say 4-year-old.
Point is, you’re not getting a professional product or service here. You’re getting a needlessly dangerous and inefficient product that does (or makes you do) some really stupid things that no mortgage professional in their right mind would have you do.
Borrow from a LOC in pursuit of an accelerated mortgage payoff? That’s plain stupidity.
This is the disclaimer on every agent site:
“United First Financial, its independent agents and subsidiaries provide Web-based software and support services. United First Financial does not provide accounting, tax, legal, real estate, mortgage, or investment advice.”
Jane, would you have the nerve to charge your $300, but issue a disclaimer that you actually are not a professional in your field, and your only credential is that you paid a $175 fee to hang a shingle?
If all of the discussion on the many blogs is not enough to heve you question the validity of this product, perhaps the fact that the very people selling you mortgage advice *do not provide* mortgage advice. Huh?
I like the product, use the product and think it’s worth the $3500 price tag. I’ve read most of your posts and I don’t have the time or the desire to argue with you. You really don’t understand the product or how it changes one’s behavior. You’ve also shown you don’t understand the psychological impact it has on the user of the system. There’s something to be said about knowing exactly when you’ll be out of debt; no matter how much your life changes. I know I can make extra payments on my own to get out of debt faster, but what I don’t know is how to manage my cash flow so that less money is paid to interest and more to principal. For example; I didn’t realize that by increasing my income by $200 per month and reducing my living expenses by $150 per month would allow me to cancel (not pay) $100,000 in interest over the next 7 years. This system allows me to stay on track and my goal (pay off date) is always looking right at me; I love the visual representation it gives! My wife just took a pay cut of $200 per month and this is going to push our pay off date out 2 years. This has motivated us to make up that income somewhere else so we can get on the original track we were on. We wouldn’t have undestood the impact of this without the MMA. It’s a wonderful tool and well worth the money!
Ah yes, the old “you just don’t understand” excuse. All that UFF agents have left in their arsenal is saying I’m wrong but not pointing out exactly how that is. Why? Because I’m not wrong. The product is expensive, inefficient, and time consuming. It costs the user far more than $3,500, not just in hard costs, but also in unnecessary risks that the software and UFF direct consumers to take.
Now you’re seriously telling us that you DID NOT KNOW that if you paid more each month to your mortgage, you’d pay it off faster and pay less interest? (Should I bother to mention to all my readers that you, Paul, work for a mortgage broker? LOL)
And the truth isn’t that you “wouldn’t have understood the impact” without MMA. The truth is that YOU CHOSE NOT TO. A simple and free spreadsheet will also tell you exactly when you can pay off your mortgage. You simply choose not to use the easiest, cheapest, most efficient, and most sensible tool that’s available.
If every one can do it for free why aren’t they doing it? if every one can manage their debt why are our national average savings in negative? Why are we in a 10 trillion dollar debt? Why can’t even the government managing their budget or debt? Cause people suck at making good financial decisions especially on their own. I see MMA software as a way to discipline an individual to follow their budget and make the consequences of the debt clear. It motivates people to work towards financial freedom as a team. It is very hard for most people to do things they don’t want to do on their own on a daily basis like saving money. Every purchase you make MMA shows you the “true cost”. $20,000 car might actually cost you $30,000 when you consider the debt you could have paid off. If it helps people be disciplined in they’re financial decisions, who are you to say that its not worth the money? What if the software helped people be disciplined enough to follow the budget and pay off their debt in 8 years when otherwise they would’ve taking decades without MMA or with some “do it your self” budget software people usually stop using after 3 weeks? Its hard when you have to struggle on your own. And any mistake you may make in the calculation by doing it your self could cost you thousands of dollars in interest you could have saved. Wouldn’t it be better to use MMA, work with a team of experts who can guarantee the most efficient out come, without wasting the time and effort to figure it out your self? i mean you have a life to live, kids to play with and a family to spend time with. Isn’t it up to the user to decide if that was worth the money or not? The retention rate means that people continue to use the program because it helps their budget and be disciplined. You would have second thoughts if you found out that the $20,000 car you were trying to buy was actually going to cost $30,000. you would end up getting a cheaper car.
I see it being worth the money for SOME people. Why waste money on a mechanic when you can try to fix it your self? Because for SOME people its not worth the time and its worth the MONEY. Yeah! I win.
P.S Contrary to a common believe, it is not always best to pay off the debt with the highest interest rate. their are 4 factors involved to determine the interest you end up paying. Interest rate, length of term, amount of debt, how the interest is calculated. depending on these factors you don’t always save the most interest by paying off the highest interest rate.
You said “people suck at making financial decisions..” – You’re right, especially if they’re throwing $3,500 down the toilet on this crappy software.
$3,500 software doesn’t make a careless person more careful. It doesn’t make an ignorant person less ignorant. It doesn’t “help make decisions” any more or less than a simple and free spreadsheet does.
The retention rate means nothing other than people who already flushed $3,500 down the toilet don’t stop using what they’ve paid an outrageous price for. Retention rates only have meaning when you’re talking about a service (like insurance) that has a recurring fee. Once the MMA buyers have surrendered the $3,500 and there’s no turning back, they might as well keep using it.
And yes, you’re right that the total interest does include those four factors. However, it always saves you money to pay your extra cash toward the highest interest rate. Simple math, baby. Simple math.
sumyunggai, I managed to struggle through that entire comment, and was deciding on which part to focus on, when you made a huge blunder at the bottom.
Almost all of your comment is re-hashed MMA agent material that has already been debunked here and elsewhere, but you did come up with a new one, so let’s focus on that:
Please give an example when “it is not always best to pay off the debt with the highest interest rate”. Just one example. Thanks.
“I didn’t realize that by increasing my income by $200 per month and reducing my living expenses by $150 per month would allow me to cancel (not pay) $100,000 in interest over the next 7 years.”
For the above statement to be valid, (i.e. for $350 extra per month over 7 years to save you $100K in interest for the rest of the loan) your rate would have to be at least 6-5/8% if not higher. Does MMA tell you that you could have used that $3500 to pay the closing cost to a lower rate mortgage, and actually save money? The phantom savings you brag about are meaningless, it’s the time value of your own money. Now, paying 5% vs 6.625% is real savings. Where on your financial dashboard does “refinance” pop up?
In your example, what is the loan balance and interest rate at the start of the period wherein you are not paying (or cancelling) $100K in interest? Additionally, is seven (7) years your estimated years to payback the loan?
When someone is clueless it’s impossible to know what they understand and what they don’t. I can tell from this comment and others past that you lack the insight to comment on the value of this service. If you told me you’ve been using the service for 6 months, have nothing else to do in your life except analyze spreadsheets and have only one debt and the service hasn’t done anything for you, then it’s probably not for you.
You said “the product is expensive, inefficient, and time consuming. It costs the user far more than $3,500, not just in hard costs, but also in unnecessary risks that the software and UFF direct consumers to take.”
I’m not sure what you mean about the unnecessary risks the software directs consumers to take and how it costs far more than $3,500 in risk. Can you explain this comment?
It takes me 10 minutes a week to update, so how is this time consuming and inefficient?
Are you always this condescending? We all know if we pay extra on the mortgage we can pay off sooner than just making the regular scheduled payments. How much sooner will we pay off if we pay $100 one month, $200 the next month, $300 the next month and zero the next month? Most of us don’t know the answer to this question and can’t calculate how much interest this will save us, let alone where we are.
I’m glad you mentioned to the readers that I’m in the mortgage industry. Not sure what you mean about “LOL”. Can you elaborate? You said I work for a mortgage broker. I never said that. I’ve been the owner of a mortgage company for over 16 years, security and insurance licensed and haven personally helped hundreds of people with their finances. If you’re going to say things other people are going to read you should be truthful.
You said “And the truth isn’t that you “wouldn’t have understood the impact” without MMA. The truth is that YOU CHOSE NOT TO. A simple and free spreadsheet will also tell you exactly when you can pay off your mortgage. You simply choose not to use the easiest, cheapest, most efficient, and most sensible tool that’s available.” The truth is I don’t have the time to produce a spreadsheet everytime my life changes. The spreadsheet works great as long as life remains static with no changes and as long as we’re just talking about the mortgage. The spreadsheet can’t re-calibrate or give me details about my other debt. In most cases easy, simple and cheap is not the best way to evaluate a financial solution.
The fact that you OWN the mortgage company makes your lack of understanding of mortgages even scarier. You are selling mortgage services, yet volunteered to us that you didn’t know that extra money paid to your mortgage would help pay it off faster. That is frightening.
The spreadsheet I reference is easily updated any time you choose to make an extra payment or eliminate the extra payment. Those promoting UFF have a vested interest in making consumers think a spreadsheet couldn’t possibly help them to get out of debt or it would be too complicated for them to use. On the contrary, it’s much easier to use than UFF and much more efficient as well.
In terms of the additional risks… UFF directs consumers to aggressively use HELOCs (and now credit cards) with their system. That’s often not a good choice for a consumer…. not only because the cost to use a HELOC is more expensive than leaving debt on the first mortgage. But also because a consumer has risk in using the HELOC (related to changes the lender may make and variable interest rates) and the use of the HELOC might negatively impact their credit rating (in exchange for little to no real benefit.)
Again, it’s easiest for UFF supporter to claim that I really don’t understand the MMA product than defend the high cost of the product and the little (if any) real benefit from it. You’d hate to actually have to prove any points with any real numbers. It’s much easier to just pretend I don’t understand MMA. The truth is that I understand it all too well.
Hi, I found this blog when searching for information about UFF and MMA, as it was recommended by someone I consider credible. However, after reading the posts here, I think I will look at what Quicken offers first. I have a couple of sincere questions for those of you more financially literate than I am. First, I’m wondering if anyone can speak to the validity (or lack thereof) of the claim made by UFF that to save money on long-term interest using their program, you don’t necessarily have to make extra payments (i.e. floating the money through a HELOC and timing the payments appropriately allows you to save money without extra funds)? I ask because I don’t have money for extra money for anything … including their program! Second, could anyone tell me their opinion of setting up their mortgage payments on a biweekly payment system versus the standard monthly payment? Does this amount to significant savings, and is it difficult to set up through most mortgage companies? Thanks!
There you go again Tracy changing my words and deceiving the readers. For you to imply I don’t understand mortgages is a perfect example. You may want to read my comment again; I never said I didn’t understand mortgage pre-payment and the effect it has on amortized loans.
I didn’t say your spreadsheet doesn’t work; it’s just doesn’t do what the MMA does.
From my experience, the MMA has never aggressively used my HELOC or credit cards. Of course you wouldn’t know that because you’ve never actually used this system.
So I find your statement, “UFF directs consumers to aggressively use HELOCs (and now credit cards) with their system” untrue.
Have fun chasing your tail.
Paul – For someone who didn’t want to argue with me, you’re sure arguing!
How about we change my wording “aggressive use of a HELOC” to “use of a HELOC with little to no benefit, but added risk to the consumer.” This wording is much more precise.
And you’re right. The spreadsheet does NOT do what the MMA does. It does not waste $3500 plus future interest. It does not take a few hours a month to use. It does not direct the consumer to make unnecessary transfers between accounts. It does not tell the consumer to use a HELOC in an unnecessary, risky, and expensive way. The spreadsheet is far superior to MMA.
Thanks again for participating in the discussion.
Tracey,
You are FAR better off with Quicken or MS Money, if a software program is the way you want to go. Both will do a far better job of helping you create a budget, both will allow you to import account transactions directly from your bank, and neither will tell you to filter your mortgage through a useless HELOC.
When UFirst agents say they can show you how to accelerate your mortgage without increasing your payments, they are lying. To accelerate your mortgage, the MMA will direct you to make “transfers” from the HELOC to your mortgage. These are simply prepayments in disguise. The problem is, you’ve reduced your mortgage by increasing your HELOC balance – you’re robbing Peter to pay Paul. If it takes you a while to pay down the balance of the HELOC again, you’re accumulating more HELOC interest than you saved in mortgage interest. You just can’t come out ahead by doing this. And the fact that you started out $3500 poorer because of the fee makes this a really, really bad deal.
Further, UFirst’s MMA will not work for you if you have no extra money at the end of the month. UFirst even say so in the FAQ on their website.
Biweekly has some minor advantages if you time the payments to happen as soon as your paycheque goes in, but we’re not talking big savings.
I paid my mortgage biweekly, but there was no extra charge for me to do so. If there are significant extra fees involved, forget it. Otherwise, consider it if you are paid biweekly. One other advantage of biweekly is that you have twice as many opportunities to make extra payments against the principal. Your mortgage company will only apply any prepayments to the mortgage on the dates when the regular payment is due, so if you find yourself with some extra money, you may not have to wait as long to apply it.
Talk to your mortgage broker about your options. And if you are getting a new mortgage or renewing, be aggressive in asking multiple lenders for their lowest rate, lowest fees and best terms for prepayment you can.
Good luck, and check back in.
Sorry, that last note was to Kimberley Elise – not “Tracey”
Paul,
The only published MMA transaction examples available online show aggressive use of a HELOC. There are examples in videos, but this one is easier to see and is taken direstly from a UFirst-published video:
https://www.debtfreeproject.com/money_merge_account_example.html
In this example, the HELOC ending balance and average daily balance are hovering around $10,000 every month. I’ve seen examples with balances as low as $6000.
Whether the average daily balance is $6000 or $10,000, that is debt accumulating more interest than it would if it were still in the primary mortgage at a lower rate.
This is one of the main points against the MMA – you are being asked to pay a sum of money that would be better spent on your mortgage directly, for a product that further slows potential mortgage repayment.
The use of the HELOC is risky because of the possibility that the lender could reduce the available credit, close the account, or otherwise make a change that makes funds unavailable to the consumer. (How great would that be after the consumer had just “deposited” a paycheck and now needs money to pay bills?)
Of course, the other risk is the variable interest rate.
I am new to this thread, but myself and some friends created our own MMA software. It does pretty much the same thing as the U First MMA software. It uses a HELOC to help the homeowner pay down their mortgage. It also will allow you to import your HELOC statements each month and adjust the pay off schedule, if you do not spend the same each month.
The reason for the HELOC is peace of mind. Using a HELOC makes sense to us and to many others because it will allow the homeowner the ability to put every extra penny they have into the HELOC, thus paying off the mortgage faster. It is proven (and is in the software) that you can pay off your mortgage faster by putting the extra money directly towards the mortgage and not put it into the HELOC. But does that person put all their money towards the mortgage or do they keep some back for emergency’s….. That is the reason for the HELOC.
Anyway….. our software is FREE. All you have to do is download and register it. All we ask is that if you find bugs or things that should be changed, please let us know. We do this as a hobby, but we also believe that $3500 is to much for MATH.
****TOO BAD THIS IS JUST A FRONT TO GET PEOPLE TO SIGN UP FOR THE OTHER SCHEME YOU’RE PEDDLING. NO THANKS. LINK REMOVED ****
What “scheme” are you talking about? Their is nothing required to register and use this software.
If you are referring to the request for people that read the blog to sign up for the shopping portal, then you are again wrong about us. That does help support the site, but by no means is it required. It is a great site that saves people money and does not cost them a thing.
Trust me, we did not put all the time and effort that we have into this software just to get people to sign up for a free shopping portal….
Anyway, it is your blog so we are sorry if we offend anyone, but the software is still free and it still does what UFirst charges $3500 for. So use it or not, it is a hobby for us.
JD
My friend, who struggles to make ends meet, got roped into selling this software somehow, and is now trying to get me to buy it. (She has NO clue what it does). I explained to her that I have a plan. Throw my extra money at my debt. Just to give Bruce, Robert, and a few other of the individuals who are defending this plan, a sense of the impact of just ONE extra payment:
I made a spreadsheet keeping track of my loan (yes it took me more than a minute to make, but I’m neither lazy, nor do I want to pay this loan until I’m 76 years old by just making the minimum payments).
If I continue paying the minimum payment, my payoff date would be October 14, 2056. If I make just ONE extra payment of $1000 at the current interest rate, JUST ONE, my payoff date will be EIGHT YEARS AND 5 MONTHS sooner. Imagine, just taking a FEW MINUTES to figure that out, and making extra payments every month.
As long as you are not lazy, can make a freaking budget or yourself, and understand the impact of making extra payments, you don’t need this freaking software. With my spreadsheet I can literally SEE the impact of what an extra payment will do.
I’m doing it on my own, and for free.
Sunslant – you have a 50 year mortgage? Either way, the rest of your post is right on target, the math is not complex for anyone who passed their fourth grade classes.
Careful with the friend, though. Those who have ‘drunk the koolaid’ are not likely to listen to reason. When she tells you “you can’t do this on your own”, “financial GPS”, or “factorial math”, you need to run, not walk, in the other direction.
I wish your friendship well.
Robert
You said before you started using your MMA software that you didnt care or even consider the fact of what an extra payment would do to your mortgage. After you started using the MMA software you said now you cared about the smallest change in interest to your over all debt after making a small purchase. The value of the change(Financial Wisdom) that happened to you and your family in a very short time is what could never be calculated by factorial math or all the experts in the world. You will never again have to wonder how the smallest to largest financial decision you and your family make will impact your future, its all at your finger tips.
The education in finances, goal setting and dream chasing is priceless. We can not put a value on the last two.
I chose choice (b) MMA. Robert you are definitely an expert in my opinion. You paid for your education but it was not the cost of MMA it was all the interest you paid out before MMA.
Pardon me if I’m a bit skeptical about someone truly going from not caring about money at all, suddenly caring about every penny… all a result of flushing $3,500 down the toilet.
I paid off my house using this program!
Judy – You could have paid off your house months faster without it!
Congratulations Judy That is Awesome.
Judy,
First, I doubt you paid off your house with this. I think you just made a fatuous claim, without evidence, that everyone can simply dismiss without evidence.
Second, If you were potentially within 3 years of paying off your house when you bought this, spending $3500 on it was worse than usual. If you already were that close, wasting $3500 only set you back by a greater percentage of your total debt than is common among MMA users.
You all can call me and my wife idiots or stupid or whatever you want, but this program changed our lives and our childrens lives. We KNEW that if we sent extra money in it would help pay our debts down faster. Do you think we ever did? NO!!!
What this software does is show us what are choices do pos or neg for our future. I am now below 7 Years to debt freedom. 2 years ago I was at 29 years on my mortgage.
Could I have done it on my own? Yes. Would I have done it on my own? NO
Bruce,
If you insist, then yes, you are an idiot. You put yourself $3500 further into debt, and even though you knew that every extra $100 you spent was costing you X days to your mortgage, you wouldn’t take action. But when you are told *exactly* the same thing by a $3500 piece of broken software that is inefficient and more work, you somehow ARE willing to listen and apply more money to your mortgage.
To go from 29 years to 9 (7+2=9) requires a LOT of extra money. More than double your payments, in most cases. If the money was there all along, you could have done this on your own, and by now you would be on track to pay off the mortgage a few months faster than the MMA.
As it is, you’re paying more interest than you need to, any LOC you are using isn’t helping (and could be frozen) and you supported a scummy company. None of these outcomes were unforeseeable, and you still seem happy about it. So yes, that makes you an idiot for buying the MMA.
I have been thinking about and researching the MMA for about 2 years now. Funny i never found anything negative about the MMA until now. Bad luck on searching or whatever. The thing in the back of my mind has always been, why can’t i use Quicken for this? It’s just budgeting.
So I was considering the MMA account. I got the projected “plan” showing how much i would save and be debt free/own house etc. The 3500 dollar cost has not set well with me ever.
My wife and I have been decent budget people. We end up with about $500.00 free cash flow currently. I have been thinking about how to increase that cash flow and get ourselves out of debt, responsibly.
So I have a Line of Credit of 8k, with 4100 used on it. Had to do a re-roof job on our house last year. Financed part of it with the 4100 and part with cash i had saved up for such home repairs.
So the next plan is to pay off the 1 credit card i own, the used car loan, the small amount of hospital bills and get the LOC paid off.
It will take a little bit of time but i think if I do my own MMA for myself, i can use this personal line of credit to pay down the credit card first, then nail the car loan down, then hammer the 2nd mortgage, then we can go to town on the primary.
Easy! And No wasted $3500 on my LOC to pay to the rep to use the software and virtually cap out my options for what? A cheaper version of Quicken or Microsoft Money?
Their presentations are very “impressive” but im not going to waste $3500. Thank you for this blog too. I has been more then helpful to me. I don’t throw down any money for anything before thinking it out.
Zak,
Any Google search for anything remotely like “money merge account” or “united first financial” will cause most browsers to sound air raid sirens with big flashing red lights. UFirst and their agents hate Google with a passion, because they can’t control the message like they can in a presentation. They need to get you 1-on-1 before you hit Google, otherwise they’ve lost the sale.
Craig,
Ya i totally agree. I was reading pros and cons on the whole thing for awhile while considering this. Since my situation wasn’t a 2nd mortgage LOC but a personal line. I had a friend at work that has a friend that works this stuff; been doing it for years. Saying how good it is etc. So i was considering it due to “trust” of my friends character or whatever. However when that price tag was $3500 i was like what?!
I have owned Microsoft Money and now I have Quicken and i was thinking its the same thing if not similar so why the huge price? That’s when i started to google a lot more articles which i should have done sooner but regardless im not doing it now so its all good.
So after my rejection of the program here is the e-mail i got this morning. *sigh* Still not going to do it.
Zak,
I can appreciate your due diligence in this important matter, however, I firmly believe that you will NOT achieve the same results as our software. I must apologize, but it occurred to me that I never took the time to fully explain why our software system is crucial; I took it for granted that the last agent you were working with explained this to you.
This is what I propose we do. Today, I am sending you a presentation CD-ROM that explain the program from start to finish. This will explain to you how our software will use “found money” that you never thought you had and use it to it’s most efficiency to pay down your debt. This “found money” is not re-adjusting your expenses, but rather, understanding banking principles that only large banking institutions have used for many years.
Our software brings this knowledge to the homeowner level and uses the same principles, so that every penny to your name is ALWAYS earning interest OR cancelling out debt. Have you ever thought that the money sitting in your zero interest checking account could be used to cancel out interest until you need that money to pay expenses?
I have read the same “stuff” on the internet that you just read, and I can tell you that our worst critic out there has never USED our software to fully understand what it does. Consider this …
1. I come from 10 years of experience in the mortgage business, so I understand these financial concepts
2. I graduated from the University of Illinois with an Electrical Engineering degree, so I understand and appreciate the logic. Before I offered this product to my clients, I studied the software to make sure it worked. I can tell you that YOU WILL NOT get the same results.
3. United First Financial spent 2 years and $2.5 million in research and development of this product. Mathematical engineers from GE Aeronautics were contracted to write the software code and create the complex math algorithms that analyze the most important factors in paying debt down. You will only understand this when you watch the presentation CD.
4. NBC News in Las Vegas reviewed our company, attempting to uncover a scam, only to report that the software was worth every penny. Watch it on my website at http://www.MoneyMergeVideo.com
5. One of the largest accounting firms in the world, Ernst & Young, awarded the co-founders of United First Financial the 2008 Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award in the Utah region in the financial services industry.
6. We are so confident that our software works as it should, that we GUARANTEE our results with a written guarantee when you sign up.
Zak, you are an intelligent man. All I ask of you, before you make your final decision, is to take the time and watch the presentation CD I am mailing to you. I am convinced that by attempting to do this by yourself will cost you much more than the $3500 initial investment into the program.
When I bought my home, I took it upon myself to build my own brick paver patio. I bought an instruction magazine at Home Depot and read up on it before starting. The magazine said I could do it in 2 weekends, so I decided to take on the project. What I learned was that it actually took me 3 months (the entire summer) to build. I moved 22 tons of gravel, sand, and brick pavers ALL BY MYSELF. When the project was done, it wasn’t perfect, because some of my cut in the brick weren’t accurate, and the patio was not level. But, it looked acceptable. One year later, there were parts of the patio that were beginning to sink into the ground and weeds began to grow between the bricks. The sand behind the retaining wall started to wash out every time it rained. It got so bad, that in the second year, I ultimately had to call a landscape professional to fix it. The lesson of the story is that I ended up spending more time AND money by doing it myself. I later realized that I should’ve hired a pro to begin with.
Please call me when you are done watching the presentation, as I am sure you will see the huge advantage of using our software system.
Sincerely,
Makes me wonder if that is an auto generated e-mail the reps just plug my name into or if its a template reply, its crazy long.
UFirst agents have the “marketing” burned into their heads. They can spout this stuff all day long if necessary.
Thank you very much for posting the email. By the url, I see it was written by agent Joe Medrano. I love where he claims to have graduated with an Electrical Engineering degree. He continues to explain how the MMA was developed by “Mathematical engineers from GE Aeronautics”. Every engineer knows there is no such thing as a “mathematical engineer”. I sincerely doubt Joe has the degree he says he does. If he does, ask him how large the mathematical engineering department is at the University of Illinois, or indeed, where one can study in this field.
What really burns a lot of us is the talk that about “complex math algorithms that analyze the most important factors in paying debt down”. They act as if basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division are beyond the grasp of anyone who doesn’t have that elusive “mathematical engineering” degree. In fact, you only need subtraction to beat the MMA.
Month-end bank balance (minus) contingency amount (equals) extra mortgage payment. MMA beaten.
And if he brings up “factorial math”, I wrote a guest blog entry here on the subject.
“Our worst critic out there…”
Moi???? Well OF COURSE I haven’t actually used the product. I’m not about to cough up $3,500 just for giggles. All I need to debunk the software is a pencil and a piece of paper.
“Found money.” LOL – Sounds like I have my next blog post regarding UFF.
So i sent Joe a reply e-mail with a link to http://www.theage.com.au/news/property/smoke-and-mirrors/2004/09/28/1096137225560.html
Curious to see if what he has to say if anything.
“Using the banks money” – We started out by taking out a loan called a mortgage, using the bank’s money. Now that it’s time to pay the loan back, we need to get the money from somewhere. Usually, it comes out of our paycheck. But MMA claims that if we use a HELOC, we are not using our money anymore, we are using the bank’s money. But, wait, we started all this by using the bank’s money to take out a mortgage and now we have to pay it back. So that means if we use the bank’s money by taking a loan out of the HELOC, we have to pay that back, too. So all we did was postpone having to pay the bank back by using the HELOC money to pay the mortgage. We still have to pay the HELOC back. Where is that money going to come from? Out of our paycheck. So why should we spend $3500 on MMA to play a money shell game with a HELOC?
“Interest cancellation” – MMA claims that by loading up the HELOC and running our paychecks through the HELOC, we reduce the balance so much that we save lots of money that way, and that alone is worth $3500. OK, so how much can we save? Well, let’s assume our mortgage rate is 6%. That means each month, we are charged 1/2% on our mortgage balance, the whole balance. But if we are using interest cancellation, the most that we can save is whatever our monthly salary is. So, if we bring home $5,000, the largest HELOC balance we can offset is $5,000. How much will that save? $5,000 times 1/2% is $25. That’s $25 per month or $300 per year. So MMA wants you to spend $3500 upfront to save $300 per year. Do you know how much interest you would save if you just put $3500 towards your 6% mortgage? OVER $4,000.
“Factorial math” – MMA claims no one except a computer can figure out the best possible way to pay all your bills and debts because of all the possible combinations. LIES. There is only one SIMPLE BEST way to pay off all your debts. You pay off the highest interest debt first and work your way down using a DEBT SNOWBALL. It only needs addition and subtraction.
Jimmy is one of the great NaySayers I run into as I post regarding MMA. But I’ve chased his across the ether to set one point straight. On Fraud Files I’ll just post in this thread and move on.
The calculation of interest is pretty simple. And for many examples, I can do it on my fingers. Rule of 72 says dived interest rate (whole numer) into the number 72 to get time to double. At 6%, money doubles in 12 years. $3500 in 12 years, $7000. Another 12, $14000. 6 more? Well I know that the square root of 2 is 1.414, 40% of 14000 is 5600, so I’ll say the total is $19,600.
Now, let’s go to a calculator – 1.06 ^ 30 = 5.74, and $3500*5.74 = $20,090. Not bad, counting on my fingers provided 97.5% of the accuracy of a computer chip. On the other hand, the 6% is really 1/2% per month, and it works out to $21079, true cost of MMA.
(since 1.006^30 = 1.19, 3500*1.19 = $4188, I suspect that was Jim’s typo)
Final point – While the HELOC shuffle ‘can’ save some money, the UFF MMA product doesn’t implement its use correctly, so even at zero cost, I’d not use the system.
To everyone who is thinking about doing this. DO THE MATH don’t trust the sales person. More then likely they know nothing about finances and have just trusted the person that sold it to them.
So even if it is a relative / friend / Co-Worker / Someone You Trust. Do your own math more then likely they have not. They are only trusting what they have been told and most likely have not have not done the math themselves.
Once you do the math you will find out it is not worth the outrageous $3,500 they charge.
yeah , MMA claims no one except a computer can figure out the best possible way to pay all your bills and debts because of all the possible combinations.