Xyngular: Starve, Binge, Purge, Repeat!
Multi-level marketing companies are getting lots of attention lately thanks to the Bill Ackman smackdown of Herbalife in December. MLMs offering “nutrition products” are of special interest to consumers, and with good reason. Companies like Isagenix, MonaVie , Usana, Mannatech, and Shaklee all offer magic potions that claim to help you lose weight, absorb more vitamins and minerals, and cure all diseases.
Of course, many of these health claims are strictly prohibited. Nutrition MLMs generally have disclaimers stating that their health claims have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration, and that the products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. But that doesn’t stop the distributors for making such claims, and the company management turns a blind eye to it.
Jennifer McKinney – the blogger formerly known as MckMama (and the one who was accused of fraud on the United States Bankruptcy Court) – - has been pimping Xyngular for almost a year. Go Team MckMama!!!! She has been racking up new recruits like crazy, possibly due in part to the health claims she has made like this one:
Do Xyngular products work?
You’re probably asking yourself if the Xyngular products actually “cure” all kinds of diseases as participants on MckMama’s Facbook page have claimed. I’ve seen claims that it has cured fybromyalgia, diabetes, chronic fatigue syndrome, migraines, joint pain, and more.
The short answer is NO. Xyngular products do not cure these ailments, or any others. There have been no clinical studies to back up any of these claims. I don’t doubt that some people may temporarily feel better when they try a new product. But I do not believe there is any scientific evidence to support the claims that Xyngular heals these illnesses.
Do the products help people lose weight? Yes. But the weight loss is done at the expense of your body. According to my research, the weight loss program promoted by Xyngular is very dangerous. And those who lose weight with it are unlikely to keep it off long term because it is a fad diet, and the results are achieved by starving yourself and taking potentially unsafe substances in the process.
Jennifer McKinney’s Weight Loss
To show you just how ineffective the Xyngular weight loss program is, we have to look no further than Jennifer McKinney’s weight loss journey. What you will see below will prove that Xyngular is a waste of money. A lot of money.
MckMama claims to have started working out in December 2011, with her weight at 238. She allegedly lost 20 to 25 pounds, and she documented that loss on her blog and Facebook page.
(Special thanks to my dear friend Snort, who put together the numbers in the next three charts!)
MckMama lost this weight the way that doctors recommend losing weight: With diet and exercise. So in about 6 weeks, she lost 27 pounds, or 4.5 pounds per week.
Jennifer McKinney started using Xyngular in January 2012, just a little over a year ago. Her level of exercise dropped significantly after starting Xyngular, as she was relying on the pills and potions to lose the weight. Her Xyng weight loss went like this:
According to her Facebook posts, Jennifer got down to her lowest weight in July or August, around 171 pounds (or possibly 168 pounds, depending on which Facebook posts you believe). In 29 weeks with Xyngular, she lost about 43 pounds, or 1.5 pounds per week.
So with exercise and sensible eating, Jennifer lost 4.5 pounds per week. With starvation and drugs (which we’ll discuss below), she lost 1.5 pounds per week.
And lest you should think that her weight loss slowed because it is harder to lose once you get thinner… you should understand that even at 168 or 171 pounds, Jennifer was still overweight for her height, which is 5’6″. We’re not talking about someone having difficulty losing the last few pounds. She would have to get to at least 150 pounds to be on the upper end of the “normal range.”
And what has happened since August? MckMama has gained about 35 pounds and lost about 27 pounds. Of course, she only gave numbers for her losses, and rarely mentioned her gains.
Bouncing around between 169 pounds and 189 pounds for the last six months is not healthy. Xyngular is clearly the mother of all yo-yo diets. Or is that the MckMama of all yo-yo diets???
Further more, the 43 pounds that MckMama lost via the Xyngular products (and then gained, and lost, and gained, and lost….) has come at a price, both to her pocketbook and her health.
Are the Xyngular products healthy and safe?
The Xyng products are marketed as “all natural,” but what does that mean? MckMama has been repeatedly doing the 8-day Ignite Fat Burning System. What Xyngular is selling you is an extremely low calorie diet, supplemented with products that are arguably dangerous.
Here are the concerns that I have with the “8 day challenge” that McKinney so often promotes:
- Every morning starts with a Xyng pill which has an ingredient called geranium root, which is DMAA (a substance with questionable safety), according to this document. Xyng also contains beta phenylethylamine HCL, a substance with effects similar to amphetamine, an upper.
- You only eat three meals during the entire eight day program. No, that’s not an error. Three out of the eight days are called “eating days,” and on those days, you get to have one meal of 500 to 600 calories. The other five days, you have no meals.
- Essentially, the only thing you are allowed to eat besides those three meals is protein. You’re allowed 4-6 ounces twice a day, but that’s it.
- Instead of meals, you will be having meal replacement shakes, some overpriced fruit juice, a bunch of laxatives (called “Flush”), and some silly “Cheat” sprinkles that claim to prevent your body from absorbing fat.
And what about the low calorie part of the plan? Lowering calories is good. Lowering calories too much is bad. Lowering calories to an extreme, and without a doctor’s supervision is downright dangerous.
Consuming less than 1,000 calories per day is considered a starvation diet. That’s why such diets are meant to be used only in extreme cases, and only under the active monitoring of a doctor.
I’ve added up the calories on the Ignite program, and on the non-eating days, you’ll be getting 500 to 800 calories. On the eating days, you’ll be getting 900 to 1,300 calories. You will be starving yourself constantly during the 8 day program.
You should research neutral sources on extremely low calorie diets. Remember, your Xyngular distributor will tell you this diet is fine. Why? Because they are trying to sell you something. These neutral sources have nothing to sell you. They are simply providing information that is generally accepted in the medical community. WebMD says that a very low calorie diet will enable you to lose weight, but should be done under medical supervision and may have side effects if done too long. And once you go off the very low calorie diet, you’re likely to gain the weight back.
Starve, supplement, repeat? Yes!
Could it get any worse? Yes. It is worse if the program helps you take off pounds, and then you gain them right back. Or if you have to keep doing the program over and over to sustain your weight loss.
We saw above that MckMama lost much less weight with the Xyngular system than with a simple plan for healthy eating and exercise. And we saw that for the last six months, her weight has been going up and down.
What’s the answer to this problem??? MORE XYNG!
In the last year, Jennifer Howe Sauls McKinney has done at least ten of the 8 day challenges, according to her Facebook postings. That is 80 days of active starving and supplementing over the last year. Wow!
How much do Xyngular products cost?
The 8 day challenge with the Ignite system costs $250 wholesale, and $340 retail. If you move up to the 29-day Xyngular Body Transformation program that Jennifer did more recently, it is $490 wholesale, and $680 retail.
I know MckMama has justified the cost by saying that she spends less on groceries. I don’t know about you, but I don’t eat $500 to $700 of groceries myself per month. And I’m sure not going to pay that much for a starvation program that uses stimulants and hocus pocus to (supposedly) burn fat.
(FYI – This is how Jennifer McKinney is getting so many people to sign up as distributors. It’s cheaper to sign up – - $20 or $5 “membership fee” – - and pay wholesale for your pack than it is to buy the pack at retail.)
What about the Xyngular business opportunity?
What’s the real reason Jennifer McKinney is pushing Xyngular so hard? Because she makes money off every mark that she sucks into this scam. Again, we have seen clearly that Xyngular doesn’t work for her, but she has a vested interest in making is appear that it works. And look at her lifestyle people!!! Don’t you want that????
No, you don’t.
The Xyngular business opportunity is worthless. It is a typical multi-level marketing (MLM) program. Some people call it direct sales, network marketing, or referral marketing. It is all the same, and it is all a bad deal for almost everyone.
The first thing you need to know is that more than 99% of people who participate in multi-level marketing lose money. MLM recruiters will tell you differently. They will tell you they know all sorts of people making a living doing it. They will say they know people getting rich from it. They are telling you lies to recruit you. Over and over, the research shows that almost everyone loses money in MLM.
Is MckMama making money with Xyngular? Yes. Are you going to be able to replicate that? Almost certainly not.
Jennifer McKinney has been “successful” with selling the Xyngular business opportunity because she already had a huge audience from her days of blogging. She sold the sizzle. She made her weight loss look easy, and made her lifestyle appealing to others. She made false medical claims in violation of company rules, but the assertions were compelling to those who had illnesses.
The wide reach she started with gave her a giant pool of potential victims. With thousands of blog readers, only a small fraction have to buy once or twice to elevate her to the “executive” ranks of Xyngular.
But almost everyone will fail, and any success by her recruits will not be correlated to their level of effort. (i.e. You can work incredibly hard in multi-level marketing and never come close to turning a profit because it is a game that is rigged against you.)
Most people are going to sign up, buy products once or twice, and then quit because they:
- Get hip to this yo-yo diet nonsense
- Realize the products are overpriced
- Understand how dangerous the products and programs are
- Find that most normal people aren’t going to pay this kind of money for such junk, and therefore they can’t recruit and “build the business”
We call this process churn and burn. Get a bunch of people to sign up, quickly sell them as many products you can, know that they will quit, and find new victims to sign up, quickly sell them products, and on and on and on.
Most importantly, remember this: In order to “earn” this money and the trips and other perks, you will sell your soul to the devil. You will be required to constantly recruit new people into this scheme by telling them about all the money they will earn, knowing in your heart that they have almost no chance of making that money. They will spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on products and will never turn a profit. They probably won’t even keep the weight off. This is not a business, people. This is a pyramid scheme.
Oh, I know I will be called a dream stealer. I am negative! I don’t want you to succeed! What do you have to lose???? (Uh…. your money and your health!)
I am not stealing dreams. I am saving you time and money. Let the millions who went before you and lost billions of dollars to multi-level marketing schemes be your guide. Learn from their mistakes.
You have a better chance of turning a profit at a craps table or roulette wheel in Las Vegas than you do by becoming a Xyngular distributor (or any MLM, for that matter). I have no personal interest in whether or not you sign up. I do not profit whether you sign up or you decline.
I simply want you to understand that there is a 99% chance you will lose all the money you “invest” in this business. If you want to lose money, go throw some hundred dollar bills in a bonfire and enjoy the show. Don’t give your money to a liar who is pushing dangerous products on you (and her children, incidentally).
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Tags: ignite fat burning system, jennifer mckinney, jennifer mckinney lies, mckmama, mckmama fraud, mcmama xyngualr, mlm, nutrition mlm, pyramid scheme, team mckmama, teammckmama.com, xyng weight loss, xyngular, xyngular diet, xyngular ignite
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Comments (38)
Melinda
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Hi Tracy
In regard to Jennifer’s tax implication how do the trips factor in?
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Tracy Coenen
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Melinda – She will get a 1099 for whatever Xyngular believes in the “value” of the trip. What I have typically seen happen in MLMs, is they INFLATE the value so that the company can get a bigger deduction for tax purposes. That means the distributor pays tax on the inflated number.
What I’ve found is that generally, the distributor can go on an equivalent trip for LESS than the taxes they pay on the inflated value shown on the 1099.
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Matt
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Self-ruination is the best kind of karma.
Great posts Tracy. I am familiar with your work previously via the PinkTruth blog. But I really think the MckMama bankruptcy coverage was a high point of your blogging career. I learned a great deal about the process and how some people might attempt abuse.
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Tracy Coenen
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Yes, I’m a big fan of self-ruination too. In this case, it’s just a matter of time. MckMama won’t be able to keep up the recruiting. She is wearing out her “base” of supporters. As time goes on, she will lose fans because they get sick of hearing about diet pills. Those who ARE interested will start researching little by little, and will be turned off by Xyngular. Her numbers will drop fast. And once she starts the downward spiral, there will be no stopping it. Her recruiting will fall off, and she will quickly fall out of the ranks of the high earners at Xyngular. She will have no blog income, no MLM income, no ability to get a real job. She will be sunk, and it will be all by her own hand.
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Kay
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This is a great article that sums up what kind of person Jennifer appears to be. I hope many are able to read and understand why so many feel the way they do about her. Over the years, my main interest has been in the people she has scammed financially, I know the people who donated directly to her family will never recover that, but I am curious to see how the most recent cases will unfold. Tracey, what is the likelihood that the people, like the former employee, will get the money they are owed? I have seen people ask if there is anything that can be done for them in an attempt to make sure she cannot hide from the judgments, etc, but is there a chance she can continue to evade? There has been talk of her using different addresses for different things, of her and Israel still using different addresses and other things that may be intentionally done to make it more difficult for anyone to find her, but is that realistic? I just cannot imagine being owed that kind of money and not being able to provide for my family because someone else has decided their expensive taste is more important. What must that man and his family truly think about the McKinneys?
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Tracy Coenen
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She cannot hide from judgments. Mr. Youngman can get his money, now that he has a judgment against them. What he needs to do if garnish her earnings. He can use the legal system to garnish money she earns from Xyngular. He can have that money taken away before it even hits her grubby man hands. Xyngular is legally obligated to turn the money over to Youngman BEFORE they even think of giving it to Jennifer, so long as he has the right legal paperwork in hand. It will cost him a little bit to go through the process. But it’s worth it, and he should do it NOW, before her Xyng earnings start to drop.
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Heather
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Regarding the Youngman court case, however, it was filed against Israel McKinney / Kieran’s Contracting. Since Israel is (presumably) unemployed and Jennifer and Israel are still legally separated per Wisconsin court documents, I’m not sure that Jennifer McKinney’s income is accessible to Mr. Youngman. Only any income that starts flowing to Israel in accordance with his recent Xyngular distributor status would be accessible, although I imagine Jennifer’s is the much larger portion of income. Very interesting that the separation was not withdrawn . . .
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Tracy Coenen
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Heather – That is not correct. Legal separation means nothing relative to debt. They are still spouses, so they can be held jointly liable for debt.
In this case, there will be a question of collecting from Jennifer because of differences between Minnesota and Wisconsin law. The debt was incurred in Minnesota, and they now live in Wisconsin. I do not know which law will apply. I suspect there will be more than one way to hold them jointly liable.
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Brandy
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Tracy, Just a note about the garnishment that Israel owes. I believe he is xyng-slinging too as his name has been mentioned (and I have looked at the xyng website to verify) as a “top seller” for the company. I’m guessing even if they divorced or tried to duck this on Jennifer’s side, he’s making enough with xyng that they can go after his earnings directly.
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Tracy Coenen
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Let me put it like this – - – If these assholes owed me more than $50,000, you better believe that I’d move heaven and earth to make them pay it. I don’t care how much trouble it is, I’d do it simply for the satisfaction of making them pay. I hope that’s Mr. Youngman’s attitude. These are BAD PEOPLE who need to pay the price for their actions.
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Tom Fibeger
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I see that Jennifer Mckinney according to the la Crosse Land records website is delinquent in paying her property taxes for last year and now ows interest on the amount of the un paid tax. Looks like they will have to move again sometime.
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Pam
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Great article, Tracy !
It’s not surprising at all that she gravitated to MLM’s for a source of income. Her entire blog, for years, was made up of embellishments, lies, photoshopping and deceiving people, and she has carried over these very same “skills” brilliantly as a pyramid scheme participant. She went from zero to the top relatively fast, and no doubt she’s taught the other skeevy distributors a thing or two ( none of which has the word honesty attached to it ). She’s taught the scammers how to be better scammers!
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Carmen
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OMG, I am absolutely dying over here!! I think the sentence “If these assholes owed me more than $50,000, you better believe that I’d move heaven and earth to make them pay it” is the most awesome statement in the world!!
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Althea
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Tracy,
I love your blog. Thank you for not letting Jenny sweep this off of the internet! I read for more than just the articles about her, and I have learned a lot. I am also very proud to be a debt-free, employed person more than ever!
Althea
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Tracy Coenen
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You’re welcome! It is my pleasure to hold Jennifer Howe Sauls McKinney and Israel Ryan McKinney accountable for their actions!
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Melissa
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Tracy,
The Mckinneys newest Contract for Deed is posted on Mckfacts.blogspot.com website. Best part? The balloon payment of $258,125.89 is DUE on April 15th. Along with their delinquent taxes on the property. Hard to believe these crooks keep getting away with the same routine house after house.
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Althea
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I have a heterosexual girl crush on you now.
<3
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Kelsey
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Very nicely done. This was very informative and well written.
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Fraud Files Forensic Accounting Blog » MckMama House Fire is Not Suspicious In the Least
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[...] or renting a house, avoid them like the plague. If you’re thinking about becoming a part of “Team MckMama,” the venture in which Jennifer McKinney is peddling dangerous diet pills …, walk away. If you believe one word these charlatans say, STOP IT [...]
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Andrea
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Tracy,
Is all of this information real about Mckmama? I read her blog and feltso bad for her family and then became very suspicious about the bankruptcy and when her husband left her. Then I started to follow her on Instagram and realized she is very self centered and weird. I feel very sorry for her children if she and her husband are scamming people. I never understood why they were filing bankruptcy but neither her or her husband were working? I really just feel so sorry for her children in he long run.
Andrea
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Tracy Coenen
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Yes, Andrea, the facts here are true. I have researched everything and attempted to verify everything I have posted here. It is very important for me to be as accurate as possible. The most enlightening post about MckMama, I think, is this one: http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2012/04/mckmama-fraud-jennifer-mckinney-bankruptcy/
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Andrea
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Tracy!
Omg!!!! I just got finished reading the article and I can not believe it! Jennifer really is a good scam artist! I wonder how many people she and her husband have pulled the wool over their eyes? Her blog was very addicting and sucked you in with all her drama! Also, I was so curious how she lost all her weight and how would she keep it off and guess what…..no reply! I just hope she doesn’t turn her kids into scam artist! Wow….I am speechless. Good work on revealing all of this to us that were sucked in by her lies in her blog……I am still speechless.
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Tracy Coenen
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Andrea – It is very eye-opening, isn’t it? Do you see why I wish so many of her supporters on FB would read this? I especially wish everyone considering getting involved with Xyngular would read it.
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Heather
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I have zero comments on the lady or her husband but you are woefully misinformed about the xyngular diet. I do not promote the products nor do I like them however I just wish morons like you would get your facts straight before “educating” everyone around you. The misinformation on this site is quite shocking. And to have people blindly buy into it? What a bunch of sheep.
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Tracy Coenen
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Heather – You’re either a Xyngular shill, a MckMama fan, or both. You wouldn’t have found this article otherwise, nor would you say you don’t care about any of it yet still leave a comment.
Tellingly, you haven’t pointed out even ONE factual inaccuracy in this article. Why not? Because there are none. The Xyngular diet is an ultra low calorie diet using pills with dangerous ingredients. It is a fad diet from which users will almost surely gain back weight after they stop. Look at Jennifer… her results while on the pills have been HORRIBLE, yet she still pushes them and her followers blindly believe her. (They don’t even have the gumption to do a little research on their own to debunk her claims that they’re “all natural” and sent by God!)
It is fun having a site on which the facts are finally presented. There is no misinformation here, but if you happen to think you find something, please POINT IT OUT. I’ll be happy to make changes if you can provide some facts to back up your claims.
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Sarah
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I once watched a webinar for an MLM. The way the distributor made money was by reaping the benefits of their downline – getting credit off of the people those below her recruited, and then getting credit for the people those people recruited. She may not run out of recruits because she has people doing it for her.
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Tracy Coenen
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Yes, MLM requires constant recruiting, and to the extent that you can get the freaks below you to do the recruiting dirty work for you, you are golden. Can JM keep that up? Those at the top often ride momentum well. That’s exactly what JM is doing right now. She is using all the buzz words and creating excitement among people who will largely not bother to research her claims. I LOST 80 POUNDS is compelling. Sadly, most won’t look into the claim to see that JM’s WORST WEIGHT LOSS has been on Xyng, and she has been yo-yoing the entire time she’s been on Xyng. It’s much more fun to believe IT IS BECAUSE OF XYNG THAT SHE’S SKINNY AND HAVING FUN!
Believe me, JM hates the hamster wheel she is on. She constantly has to look for new victims everywhere she goes, must use the same tired catch phrases, must make sure not to say anything that will make people suspicious…
The constant churn is required to stay at the top. I don’t think it will last beyond another year.
And if sheeple would start paying attention and looking into her claims, it could all end much, much sooner.
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Khunopie
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I lost 80 pounds before.
At first it didn’t concern me until I converted it to U.S currency
and realized I was down around $120!
Yikes
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freddy
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tracy
i am in xyngular. ive lost 40 lbs and 8 inches off my waist in 4 months . i have also kept it off for 3 years and im in the best shape ive been in for 20 years now at 47 years old . you really should look into how the program is changing thousands of peoples live s instead of bashing it for what reason i dont know apparently you are a jennifer mckenny hater or something . i dont really know her or the facts on what she has done its none of my business but what i will say is people make mistakes and if you are perfect and have never sinned keep writing on . would love to inform you and show you how xyngular is changing the health and financial lives of people across the world . feel free to call me or go to my websight [redacted] and email me your number or ill give you mine .
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Tracy Coenen
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Freddy – I don’t hate Jennifer McKinney. I hate lies, scams, and frauds. Jennifer has made a career out of swindling people. Once it came to her bankruptcy and her attempt to swindle her creditors out of three quarters of a million dollars, I could no longer sit by and just watch. I am doing my part to hold her accountable for her scams. I am thrilled to watch her have to pay her creditors one by one.
Xyngular is a fad diet. As you see Jennifer is doing much worse weight-wise since she started using it. All she has done is the yo-yo, while she lives an unhealthy lifestyle when it comes to food. I suspect you will be no different in your weight loss journey.
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Joleen
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I am a Xyngular user and I have lost 20 pounds and keep it off. My cholesterol has gone down, blood pressure medication in the trash oh and my doctor is very happy with my results. I stopped taking the products and surprise I lost 3 pounds. My body is now a FAT burning machine. I eat healthier and think before I eat at Wendy’s,McDonald’s. my fast food is an apple, banana and I am happy and love it.
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Kerrie
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Freddy,
Trying to defraud the taxpayers out of almost $1m is your business, it’s everyone’s business. Jennifer McKinney is a liar, cheat & scammer.
Xyngylar is a fad, a dangerous one at that. Any eating regimen that requires such deprivation is dangerous, not only to the body but also the mind.
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Kerrie
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Apologies, Xyngular.
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Tracy Coenen
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Joleen – Xyngular is nothing but overpriced snake oil. You lost the weight by starving yourself and using unhealthy chemicals. If you keep the weight off, it will only be because you make permanent changes in your eating and lifestyle habits. I hope you do it.
Your body is not a “fat burning machine.” It is like anyone else’s body: weight is lost when you expend more calories than you consume.
Sadly, you’ve bought into the hype and the cute slogans. Please realize that Xyngular is expensive, dangerous crap. Be good to your body and simply eat well and exercise.
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Angela Adams
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First to put this program in a unflattering light without researching every aspect is Dangerous, I have used the products and have lost weight, not by starving myself or putting unsafe in my system,In light of my testimony that I have lost weight and kept it off, I discussed it in depth with my Physician, who reviewed the product ingredients and evaluated everything included and gave me the go Ahead , and monitored my progress, which to this day has been great, and my health was not compromised in any way, what I suggest is that you Take a moment and Review the product and get a professional opinion as I did, I do hope afterwards you will retract your baseless comments, and this blog,,
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Tracy Coenen
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I am surprised that a doctor would encourage you to do the whole starvation thing (the 8 day challenge). I suspect you only brought him the vitamins, and he okayed those. I’m not sure that a competent doctor would EVER encourage the starvation process used with Ignite.
All of my comments on Xyngular are very well researched, so I will not be retracting any of them.
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Angela Adams
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Actually I took him all of the product inserts and the scheduled guide, and as I said he gave me the ok to proceed as of today I’ve maintained my 31 pound weight loss, no lingering effects and no deep pocket loss,, You obviously have more deep seeded issues relating to Xyngular, than you’re willing to admit I’m willing to give you My physicians number so you can actually research, what you obviously no nothing about,,anyone can start a blog now days huh? They’re should be a pill for ignorance
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Tracy Coenen
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There should be a pill for illiteracy too!
I would love to call your doctor, but laws regarding healthcare would prohibit him from talking to me about what you and he discussed.
If you embarked on a starvation diet with the consent and monitoring of your doctor, and if you lost weight, and if you kept it off (and continue to keep it off), then I applaud you. However, the products ARE overpriced, so you could have achieved your weight loss with a much lower cost. We’ll see how your long term results are, and whether you have to continue taking products like this (which I think are unhealthy and dangerous) in order to maintain the weight loss.
Contrary to your assertion, I have done plenty of research, and have determined that diets like this and products like this are dangerous. If your doctor isn’t actively involved when you’re taking these products, it is ill-advised.
Further, the misinformation spread by Jennifer McKinney and other Xyng-bots is disturbing. They have said that Xyngular has cured everything from arthritis to ADD to depression to migraines to joint problems to sleep problems and beyond. These types of statements violate laws, and they’re frankly dangerous. It makes me sad that people believe such nonsense and waste their hard-earned money on these crappy products.
Thanks for participating in the discussion!
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